A bad idea to modify an archtop or not?

[Dark Star]

I'm looking to buy a big box guitar & am experiencing sticker shock. I know a quality instrument is worth the high dollars they usually demand, but I am also trying to stay w/in a budget.
In my searches I have noticed that the Gibson ES-165 (Herb Ellis) models are significantly less expensive than a garden variety ES-175, & is probably the cheapest archtop of the brands I'm looking at.
Would it be unadvisable to buy one & have a bridge pickup installed to gain more sonic possiblities? I'm thinking about one that already has a full-sized humbucker in the neck position & not one of the floaters. Economically speaking it would be cheaper to go that route than to buy a 175.

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by Dark Star

I'm looking to buy a big box guitar & am experiencing sticker shock. I know a quality instrument is worth the high dollars they usually demand, but I am also trying to stay w/in a budget.
In my searches I have noticed that the Gibson ES-165 (Herb Ellis) models are significantly less expensive than a garden variety ES-175, & is probably the cheapest archtop of the brands I'm looking at.
Would it be unadvisable to buy one & have a bridge pickup installed to gain more sonic possiblities? I'm thinking about one that already has a full-sized humbucker in the neck position & not one of the floaters. Economically speaking it would be cheaper to go that route than to buy a 175.

Yeah . . . pretty much a dumb idea. If you ever want to sell it, or more appropriately, when you do decide to sell it, you've got an altered version of a cheap version of an ES175. Just my opinion, but you could always find great non-Gibson laminated arch tops with 2 pups already mounted . . . or, you could save up your money a little longer and buy the real deal ES 175.

[kris]

Originally Posted by Dark Star

I'm looking to buy a big box guitar & am experiencing sticker shock. I know a quality instrument is worth the high dollars they usually demand, but I am also trying to stay w/in a budget.
In my searches I have noticed that the Gibson ES-165 (Herb Ellis) models are significantly less expensive than a garden variety ES-175, & is probably the cheapest archtop of the brands I'm looking at.
Would it be unadvisable to buy one & have a bridge pickup installed to gain more sonic possiblities? I'm thinking about one that already has a full-sized humbucker in the neck position & not one of the floaters. Economically speaking it would be cheaper to go that route than to buy a 175.

I think you can do that.
but for what kind of music will you use bridge pick up in arch-top jazz box?
some people cancel bridge humbucker in Es-175...like Pat Metheny did it in his old Gibson.

[SamBooka]

Yeah.. Metheny originally only had a neck pickup in his 175.. put in the bridge and didnt like it (ouch!)

Sounds like you want an ES175 (which is all the 165 is .. minus the brige hb).
If price is an issue there are MANY 175-or-better guitars out there for less well less than the price of a used 165.

What you save in adding a humbucker to the bridge position you lose at resale value (and then some)

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by SamBooka

Yeah.. Metheny originally only had a neck pickup in his 175.. put in the bridge and didnt like it (ouch!)

Sounds like you want an ES175 (which is all the 165 is .. minus the brige hb).
If price is an issue there are MANY 175-or-better guitars out there for less well less than the price of a used 165.

What you save in adding a humbucker to the bridge position you lose at resale value (and then some)

Are you sure the only difference between the 165 and the 175 is one pup vs two? I thought there were other differences that were pretty significant. I'm not positive though. Maybe someone will weigh in on that?

[SamBooka]

Fairly certain.. I have had one for 2 years now and cant find much differences other than cosmetics ...

The 165 has changed a little over the years but last year I tried a mid 90s (my 165 is a 96) and couldnt tell the diff other than

a) the 165 had a clubby neck
b) the 165 had a crappy tailpiece
c) the 165 didnt have a crown inlay on the headstock.

Other than that they were very similar.

[jorgemg1984]

I have changed so many things on my 1965 Guild X-500 - tuners, bridge, tailpiece, pickups, electronics, finish, scale... all really worth it imo, the guitar is just perfect. I think here in Lisbon it has much more value the way it is than the way it was stock but I don't plan on selling it.

[bluemood]

How about a Heritage 575

[Pierrot]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

I have changed so many things on my 1965 Guild X-500 - tuners, bridge, tailpiece, pickups, electronics, finish, scale... all really worth it imo, the guitar is just perfect. I think here in Lisbon it has much more value the way it is than the way it was stock but I don't plan on selling it.

scale?

Just curious: may I ask you how did you change the scale of your guitar?

[jorgemg1984]

Sorry!: fretboard (scale is the portuguese name)

[mr. beaumont]

Gotta be a gibson?

I'd be cruising ebay for guilds and heritages.

[Patrick2]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Gotta be a gibson?

I'd be cruising ebay for guilds and heritages.

Exactly, Mr. B. Guild X500 or Heritage H575 would fit the bill perfectly.

[jorgemg1984]

I LOVE my Guild X-500. Costed me 2000€ plus around 1000€ in upgrades. Unfortunatelly good archtops here are quite rare here so I don't have much to compare with but to me it's just amazing.

[Dark Star]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Gotta be a gibson?

I'd be cruising ebay for guilds and heritages.

No, not necessarily. That is just the manufacturer I am most familiar with & those guitars have the features I like such as materials, finish, dimensions, & so on

[ES350]

The ES165 can't be all that much cheaper than a 175...and you'd take a big hit on it if you sold it after the mods. Been there, done that, lost my shirt. Plenty of 2-pickup 175 style boxes out there in 24 3/4 scale...but do you really think you'd use the bridge pickup all that much?

[Jazzman301]

Amen Mr.B. I think there are SO many options other than the Gibson line. YES the ES175 is an iconic jazz guitar BUT there are so many other great guitars out there.

Look to Peerless. They have some really nice stuff right around that $1,100ish range that would fit your bill. If I were you I would call Lou over at Guitarsnjazz.com and tell him what your neds are and he will be more than happy to help guide you and stay in your budget.

Guitars 'n Jazz - Inventory Search Results

I think that would definately fit what you seem to be looking for.

'Mike

[SearchForMeaning]

I say go for it! It's your guitar and make it the way you like. While we're weighing in here, Do you think there's enough room on an L5 for 3 pickups? I've got an L-5 that was built as an acoustic. I secretly always wanted a switchmaster. There's no way I can find a switchmaster these days, even if I did manage to sell the old L-5. I'm with Dark Star on this, I think I would be better off with modding the one I have. I guess my question would be:
1) is there enough room for 3 pickups holes? I suspect as much.
2) what are the disadvantages of cutting one big hole as opposed to 3 smaller ones.
3) could I use a toggle switch from a strat? I don't have much faith I'd find a switchmaster switch, end even if I did, it'd probably cost more than a new guitar, if you've ever seen vintage parts prices .

[mr. beaumont]

While sarcasm is still best delivered in small doses, this is my favorite post of the day.

[AlohaJoe]

I'm generally a single pickup guy and I like the ES165 the way it is, but there are quite a few nice 2-pup Guild X170s on eBay, all under 2k (great guitars) and a sweet dual-pup Guild X150 sunburst currently at around $1200 (high quality, low cost). An equivalent quality instrument with the Gibson name on it usually runs almost twice as much. Nice used Heritages show up now and then also and those are beautiful instruments as well.

Call me crazy, but I'd recommend against buying a nice instrument and taking a saw to it.

[Dark Star]

At the moment I have an Ibanez AG85 in my lap. The guitar belongs to a friend. About the only thing good I can say about it is the fit & finish. It is beautifully made but there are no attractive features about it as far as the weight, balance, thin neck profile, & electronics. Even the headstock angle bugs me. I don't know if other models are different but I'm pretty sure all the Artcore guitars have similar necks, at least the few I have played were thin like this one.
ES350- I think I would like to use the bridge pickup sometimes. I'm not a strict jazz guitarist, & from time to time I'll play a rockabilly or country style. I like to use that clean "clanky" sound that guitarists like Joe Campilongo can get w/a Telecaster.
But I the consensus is that it would not be a wise thing to do & I guess I have to agree. Better to save some more money & get an ES175 or something similar.
SearchForMeaning, your assholishness may be off-putting to others, but it endears you to me. I would kiss you if I could. With a closed mouth, of course, & on the cheek only.
I'm just thankful some knob didn't suggest that it would be disgraceful to the memory of Herb Ellis to deface an holy object such as the ES165.

[oldane]

Many years ago I talked to a guitar technician who had been approached by a customer who wanted to have a humbucker installed in his acoustic L5. The technician refused to do it because the parallel braces would be cut. The customer then did it himself - very careful, BTW, a nice looking job. But the top began to sag as foreseen by the technician. The customer brought the guitar back to the technician and asked him to fix it. The technician couldn't (at least he wouldn't) do anything but say "I told you. You just ruined one of the worlds finest guitars."

So yes, it's a bad idea. Apart from reducing the resale value a lot, there's the risk of cutting braces when cutting holes in archtops where there were none before. If that happens, the structural integrity of the instrument is compromized, and you too may experience a sagging top due to the pressure from the bridge. Even in a plywood guitar, the braces are there for a reason.

[kris]

Originally Posted by oldane

Many years ago I talked to a guitar technician who had been approached by a customer who wanted to have a humbucker installed in his acoustic L5. The technician refused to do it because the parallel braces would be cut. The customer then did it himself - very careful, BTW, a nice looking job. But the top began to sag as foreseen by the technician. The customer brought the guitar back to the technician and asked him to fix it. The technician couldn't (at least he wouldn't) do anything but say "I told you. You just ruined one of the worlds finest guitars."

So yes, it's a bad idea. Apart from reducing the resale value a lot, there's the risk of cutting braces when cutting holes in archtops where there were none before. If that happens, the structural integrity of the instrument is compromized, and you too may experience a sagging top due to the pressure from the bridge. Even in a plywood guitar, the braces are there for a reason.

This kind of modification must be do by good technician with big experience with arch-top guitars...

[cjm]

I argue that setup is so much a part of a jazz guitar that a bridge pickup for "versatility" is at best the guitar's equivalent of a superfluous nipple.

If you're serious about jazz, then have a guitar setup for jazz. A bridge pickup does not always significantly detract from its function as a jazz guitar...but it adds nothing to a jazz guitar.

If you also want to work in other genres, then get a second guitar suited to your other work and set it up appropriately for whatever you intend to do with it.

People who play both the "electric Spanish" guitar and bass confront the same issue although it is a more clearly defined choice...few would try to find one instrument that bridges the chasm between an L5CES and a Fender P-Bass, even though both are defined as "guitars"...and those few who do try through electronic "trickery" end up with something that sounds like crap.

[ronjazz]

I play a Phillips Nouveau 16, very much like a Gibson 165, single pickup archtop, laminated top. I found that rather than installing another pickup, for those gigs where more than a jazz sound is needed, a little Digitech modeling pedal took care of virtually all the sounds I look for on a commercial gig, from a country Tele style to a rockabilly Gretsch sound to a nicely broken-up Scofield or Stern vibe. At around $60, with no surgery to the guitar, it's well worth trying out. In fact, I even have dialed in a really nice jazz sound, and now go into the PA, eliminating the amplifier.

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by cjm

If you're serious about jazz, then have a guitar setup for jazz. A bridge pickup does not always significantly detract from its function as a jazz guitar...but it adds nothing to a jazz guitar.

I'm not really clear on this, I think I know what you're saying but maybe I'm wrong about that. Isn't a jazz guitar something that allows you to play jazz well? I see that your idea of jazz guitar means you don't see any use in the sounds and frequency range that a bridge pickup might add.
If I had a guitar with a bridge pickup and I used it to add some "acoustic" quality when mixed slightly in the middle toggle position, is that wrong? It's a sound I can't get from the neck pickup alone, it's warm but to my ear it's got a more openness that appeals to my ear. I never use the bridge pickup alone, I don't even use it a lot in the mix, but it's there in my sound, when I want it. Are you implying there's something "not jazz" about this?
I'm just not sure about the delineations that qualify real jazz and how the choice of specific equipment figures into the legitimacy of a player, or the definition of the genre for that matter.
I'm certainly open to being educated though-
David

[fws6]

any $100 you put into a guitar will make it worth $200 less if it is non-reversible (except maybe a refret)

Just get the guitar that you want, dont buy new but a nice used one if your budget is tight

[cjm]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

I'm not really clear on this, I think I know what you're saying but maybe I'm wrong about that. Isn't a jazz guitar something that allows you to play jazz well? I see that your idea of jazz guitar means you don't see any use in the sounds and frequency range that a bridge pickup might add.
If I had a guitar with a bridge pickup and I used it to add some "acoustic" quality when mixed slightly in the middle toggle position, is that wrong? It's a sound I can't get from the neck pickup alone, it's warm but to my ear it's got a more openness that appeals to my ear. I never use the bridge pickup alone, I don't even use it a lot in the mix, but it's there in my sound, when I want it. Are you implying there's something "not jazz" about this?
I'm just not sure about the delineations that qualify real jazz and how the choice of specific equipment figures into the legitimacy of a player, or the definition of the genre for that matter.
I'm certainly open to being educated though-
David

Well, obviously it's an opinion, but I submit it is also a widely accepted opinion, and for good reason.

You can spend $30K for one of Bob Benedetto's archtops and it doesn't come with a bridge pickup. Go back to Wes Montgomery's recordings after he began using L5's almost exclusively and usually there is no bridge pickup installed on the guitar. Barney Kessel's favorite guitar was an ES-350 modified by installation of a single "Charlie Christian" pickup mounted in the neck position. Johnny Smith Gibsons were available with a bridge pickup, but Smith himself almost always played the single pickup model. The orginal Howard Roberts Epiphone and subsequent plywood Gibson models had a single pickup in the neck position. And so on...

So, while it is just an opinion, it's an opinion I'm sticking with. I've constantly listened to and played guitar since I was a kid in the 60's. I have never heard a jazz guitar sound enhanced by the bridge pickup and I have heard plenty where the bridge pickup detracted from the sound.

Sure, it's a matter of taste, and as they say, "YMMV."

But not to my ears.

[Jazzman301]

This is not the kind of mod you do yourself for starters. Next this is not the kind of mod you have the guy at Sam Ash or Guitar Center attempt. To me if you HAD TO HAVE this mod then you need to find a serious luthier who has a TON of experience. As a guy who has built many many hot rods and HIGHLY modified vehicles over the years I can tell you that it is almost always cheaper to start off with something as close to what you want to end up with as possible. I bet to cut,route, wire and install a bridge pickup and the cost of the pickup you would be looking at $300 or more.

So here is a thought...you WANT a bridge pickup...what about a modified pickguard where the bridge pickup was a floater...? This seems MUCH more realistic and attainable with out modifying the guitar beyond restoration to original configuration. Buy/make a pickguard that has a floating bridge pickup install. Maybe a nice Kent Armstrong floating PAF. If you came to me to do this and had to have a bridge pickup this would be the only option I would consider doing.

'Mike