Another newbie thread on budget jazz boxes ... Samick or Ibanez?

[PRW94]

Hi, first post here ... although I've been playing guitar for 40 years, mostly '60s-'70s rock (my tastes there run from Beatles to Rumours-era Fleetwood Mac, kind of a Luddite about new stuff) and country (not the new garbage, the classic honky-tonk '50s stuff), came to an appreciation of jazz at a relatively advanced age, LOL! I'm a massive fan of big-band swing (that Freddie Green 4/4 rhythm sounds easy until you try to do it) and am working my way through all the other major jazz guitar greats.

I have a very nice electric guitar, a Rickenbacker 325v59, the John Lennon (fitting for a Beatlemaniac) short-scale model. I know most folks might consider that to be the polar opposite of a jazz guitar, but I'm telling you, I don't know if it's because I got a particularly special one or what, but you put that thing on the front pickup or all three pickups and get the tone settings dialed in, and you can get a really rich, sweet jazzy sound out of it. (It's been retrofitted with the non-adjustable Bigsby Sorkin bridge, and I string it with .012 Thomastik-Infeld flats.)

Still, I've always wanted a hollow-body jazz box ... had a chance back in the '70s to get an Ibanez lawsuit 175 copy and have kicked myself for 30 years for not pulling the trigger ... I've got a bit of money saved up and "she who must be obeyed" has said I could make the rest of it my birthday present, so I'm basically looking for something in the $500 range just to mess around with and learn on, knowing full well I'm not going to get an L-5 at that price. I've been around the block and bought a few guitars and I know I can get something quite nice at a pretty cheap price, especially these days, but I don't have any illusions about what I'm getting compared to what I could get if I won the lottery tomorrow. I really don't want to put anything more than that into another guitar right now, although I could go another $100 if pressed.

Basically, I'm looking for something that I can kind of develop my jazz chops on, but could still "honk" if I wanted to rock out a bit. (I'm aware of potential feedback issues and am prepared to deal with them; I have a long cord and I don't spike the volume or gain on my amp; I like a clean sound with just a bit of bite, and love the timbre a hollowbody can provide there).

I've thought about continuing my Lennon obsession with an Epiphone Casino, but I'd really like a full bodied guitar.

I played some Ibanez Artcores AF-75s at the nearest Guitar Center and was impressed with the sound and playability for the price ... although those things had been handled and played so much, the setups were absolute dog ca-ca, and I'd really rather look for something from an individual that might already have been dialed in a bit, than deal with GC and try to get them to make it right.

I also have seen a listing for an Artcore AF-85 with retrofitted Shadow AZ49 Attilla Zoller pickups at a good price. What can folks tell me about those pickups; would they be too jazzy at the times I wanted to make the guitar "honk?"

I've seen several Samick HJ-650's that REALLY caught my eye, especially the natural ones, and also have been looking at some Washburn J series.

I played an Epi Joe Pass at another nearby guitar store ... it was OK, but for some reason it didn't really excite me from a "feel" standpoint, if that makes sense.

I know this question has been asked to death, so I'm sorry for the repetition ... but I'm still tossing it out to see if anyone has any input on these models or any others that I might find within my price range?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[kambor]

I've got an Ibanez af75 and is an amazing guitar for the price, and a fairly good guitar in itself (I prefer it to a yamaha aex1500 for example, and that costs 3 times the ibanez).

I would try the ak models too, because they have a spruce top (laminated, but still spruce). Sometimes I feel the maple body is too bright, and you can't really help the tone with stock pickups (they're ok really, just bland).

For the price, you can get and af/ak 75 and maybe a dimarzio paf 36th anniversary for the neck position (if you know how to change pickups, so you don't need to pay someone to do it).

I've heard the samick are nice too, but I'm too comfortable on the Ibanez neck, when I try most other guitars I feel like struggling (except with a Peerless Mahnattan I tried once, that one was a beauty!)

[benjazzman82]

Hi there. Just thought i say that i have an af75 in burnt red-orange. Strung with 0.11flatwounds. Decided to sell her after having a love affair with peerless guitars....now have 2 and already have my eye on a third. Its in great condition. Asking £230 for it.
PM me if you want nore details and pix.
Best of luck.
Ben

[barrymclark]

I gotta second kambor. For $500, bang for buck you are going to be VERY hard pressed to be the quality of an Ibanez. They play great, sound great.

This one is just under $600 (at large instrument retail stores) and would help keep you from kicking yourself for not getting that lawsuit 175.

Ibanez.com | Hollow Body Guitars | AK95

They recently changed the headstock bling to not include the lightning bolt in the circle. Looks much classier now to me.

[TruthHertz]

Both are really good. And both may actually be the same. There is no Ibanez factory per se. Ibanez is a parent company Hoshino Gakki, and they adopt their children from factories throughout the Far East. One of the companies they've had build for them has been Samick.
Samick is an actual company. They're good. Really good. They have tended to make things with their own name just a little better, a detail here or there, just to maintain a distinction. Both are good. I've seen pictures from the Samick factory, 3 different brands of guitars being built side by side, only their headstocks being different at that point in the assembly.
I worked for Ibanez and I'd say their stateside setup is really good, (at least the ones I set up ) and I've seen Samick, also very good. Personally, I've liked the Samick Greg Bennett guitars. Great detail, great features.
David

[PRW94]

Thanks, appreciate the input from everyone.

Tossing out my question again about Zoller pickups ... I'm eyeing an Ibanez that's been retrofitted with those (among other mods), went to Shadow site and listened to sound samples that I like. I'm just wondering if they would make the guitar "one note," as in strictly a jazz box. Of course that's what I'd be buying it for, but I might suddenly get the inclination to get out of the Zoller (I love Attilla's playing)/Kenny Burrell/Barney Kessel/Eric Gale mode and get into a Junior Barnard (Bob Wills' best guitar player, IMHO)/Danny Cedrone/Scotty Moore/George Harrison/Neil Young & Steven Stills mode (all non-jazz hollow body players) with it.

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by PRW94

Tossing out my question again about Zoller pickups ... I'm just wondering if they would make the guitar "one note,"

No not at all, there is just a different quality to them. You decide how you're going to use them. Low to mid line guitars have places where they use cost cutting materials. Low end pickups are one place. I always replaced them in my guitars. With what, that's a very personal thing, but in general I think you can say the quality of sound will be better.
Also consider a lot of people of all genres got different sounds out of their guitars when they all played Gibson PAF's because these were the good pickups of the day. A lot of high end after market pickups start with the PAF model.
And... you can always replace them, which is less likely than with the original stock pups.
David

[FatJeff]

I have a Samick JZ4 (basically an L5 copy) that is my main jazzbox. I love that thing. It plays beautifully, looks sharp, the fretboard feels nice, and it's just a fun guitar to play. Previously I owned a Samick Royale (semi-hollow) and while I didn't choose to keep that one, the reason I looked at the JZ4 in the first place was because the Royale was just such a nice guitar to actually play. I recommend Samick...I think they're a quality company (they're Korean) and they put out a quality product. Remember that a lot of Korean manufacturers take their processes from Japanese factories, and emphasize quality.

I also own an Ibanez AF75NT. That is also a very nice guitar. I don't play it as much as the Samick, but that's because I keep it at my parents' house for when I visit. I have never sat down and compared the Ibanez and the Samick side by side.

[Gramps]

I just got rid of a Samick JZ4 because it was way too big for me to play comfortably and it weighed a ton. I bought it because I didn't want to spend the extra money for something hand carved.

Long story short......I just bought an Eastman AR805CE and took a loss on the Samick but am very pleased (can't put it down) with the new axe. I should have waited and saved my money.

Here is the Samick if anyone is interested. I have no financial interest in this anymore.
http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/45U-1501.htm

[Gramps]

This looks like a great deal.

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...-1-w-ohsc.html

[spiral]

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

Both are really good. And both may actually be the same.

+1. Replace the pickups on either and you will have a competent guitar which will last you for years. There is a Samick JZ4 on eBay right now for $475 w/ no bids, or BIN for $525.

[Krenwin]

Yes, thank you.

[kambor]

Try the hofners too, if you can find any nearby, and see if you can get a the loar lh-350 on the cheap (but I recommend you that you try these guitars before buying, to avoid QC issues...)

[PRW94]

Another question harkening back to the Zoller pickups ... if you had an Ibanez Artcore that had been modified with Zoller AZ 49 pickups and a Benedetto ebony archtop bridge, how would THOSE factors change the sound?

[barrymclark]

In my unlearned opinion, the bridge and nut... and fret for that matter, are the points at which the energy of the strings pass through to get to the body and then the vibrations of the body transfer back to the strings.

The material of a wooden bridge will differ from a metal and even ebony from rosewood. Metal to wood would be the most extreme difference I can think of material wise.

Pickups... well, they translate the string vibrations. If you get a translator from russian to english who speaks english natively, his english will sound different than a native speaking Russian's english. Get a different type of translator, get a different sound. Basically the same, but it has a different character to it.

[marcwhy]

Originally Posted by PRW94

Another question harkening back to the Zoller pickups ... if you had an Ibanez Artcore that had been modified with Zoller AZ 49 pickups and a Benedetto ebony archtop bridge, how would THOSE factors change the sound?

Now you're getting into "franken-jazz" guitars!
If you're going to keep mod-ing an inexpensive guitar, you're better off just saving up for a nicer guitar later. Your Ricky is fine for now.

As to your original question, as others have noted, the Samick and Ibanez are both fine. I had a Washburn HB-35 (within your budget) and swapped out the pickups, and it was a great guitar!

Happy hunting.

Marc

[barrymclark]

Originally Posted by marcwhy

Now you're getting into "franken-jazz" guitars!
If you're going to keep mod-ing an inexpensive guitar, you're better off just saving up for a nicer guitar later. Your Ricky is fine for now.

As to your original question, as others have noted, the Samick and Ibanez are both fine. I had a Washburn HB-35 (within your budget) and swapped out the pickups, and it was a great guitar!

Happy hunting.

Marc

I absolutely agree with this. I once bought inexpensive guitars and would mod them. I never paid much attention to the fact that had I just waited a bit longer, I could have easily been able to afford whatever guitar I was was trying to mimic in most cases.

[TruthHertz]

Originally Posted by marcwhy

Now you're getting into "franken-jazz" guitars!
If you're going to keep mod-ing an inexpensive guitar, you're better off just saving up for a nicer guitar later.
Marc

I like modding guitars! There's something very satisfying about taking something you like, and growing to love it through your own imaginative alterations. Like tricking out a corolla so it outruns a porsche. Also, sometimes you can get an even better sound with aftermarket modding than you can from a stock high end guitar. AND a modest instrument that sounds great makes a terrific working guitar; take it on the road and really bang it up.

Originally Posted by PRW94

... if you had an Ibanez Artcore that had been modified ... a Benedetto ebony archtop bridge, how would THOSE factors change the sound?

Ebony bridge, THAT's a big change in sound. It gets a lot woodier, attenuating some of the high frequencies and adding a quality of warmth to the decay. You lose some precise intonation control but the instrument can really acquire an acoustic quality in that change. If somebody replaced an entire bridge, foot and saddle, with a benedetto, they put a lot of effort into that. A new bridge foot must be chalk fit and carved precisely to the contour of the new guitar; not an easy task.

How does it sound?

David

[PRW94]

Sorry, screwed up ... ebony TAILPIECE, although it actually does have an ebony bridge (it's a modded Ibanez AF85). And the guitar I'm eyeing already has the mods done. Haven't pulled trigger on it yet, still looking at it and a couple of others (Samick HJ650, a Joe Pass that's been modded with new caps and a Benedetto A6 neck pickup and Duncan Lover bridge pickup, and an AK-80). Would be buying all of them on approval which is why I'm doing homework and asking so many questions. Have serious GAS for the Samick, but if I'm not mistaken it's a 17-inch, L5 size, and I'm kind of vertically challenged height-wise and in wingspan, so it might be a bit for me to handle, don't want to look like Little Jimmy Dickens on the Grand Ole Opry with that J200 that's about as big as he is, LOL!

[TruthHertz]

Ebony tailpiece is nice, it does reduce the amount of stray harmonics from the ends of the strings on the other side of the bridge. I like the feel of them but make sure you figure out a way to ground the strings. A wood tailpiece doesn't conduct electricity to a ground wire. Nice addition.
16" guitars are nice. Any of these single pickups? If you ever run across an Epiphone Zephyr Regent, with the single pickup, check it out. They're the Korean ones made about 6 years ago I think. Put a wood bridge saddle on it, throw in a duncan '59 and you've got a good high quality ringer for an old classic Gibson ES-175. It's the mahogany back and neck that really makes it.


David

[PRW94]

Update, lost out on a nice Samick HJ-650 on eBay probably would have gone a bit higher but ran out of bidding time. Thanks for all the input from everyone, though, will advise when I find something!

[Retroman1969]

You might consider an Epiphone Joe Pass model. Talk about bang for the buck! And most are (or were) made by Samick. $599 new, around $350 used. Beautiful and beautiful sounding. I just picked up an Epiphone ES-175 ($499 new) that I'm about as impressed with. The Joe Pass models are all over the place, so it shouldn't be hard to find deals on them.

[BrightSizeLife28]

I have a student who uses a Rickenbacker for Jazz, and it sounds ok...
The Ibanez guitars are well made for the price, but it wont be as nice a guitar as your Ric. I own the AK105, and although it plays ok, it's still a 'cheaper' level guitar. Still nice for the price.

[hallpass]

I think the best budget jazz boxes are the Ibanez Artcores, either the AF or AK line. Do yourself a favor and spend a tiny bit more and get an Artore Custom, like an AF105, AK105, etc. They play very well and have fantastic necks/fretwork. They'll keep you happier longer than the regular Artcore line...though the regular Artcores are good values still.

Otherwise, there's the Epiphones: Zephyr Regent, Joe Pass model, ES-175.

I was interested in the Epiphone ES175 when it came out and tried one in the store. It didn't play, feel nearly as nice, or seem as well built as my Ibanez AK105SM or a previously owned AF105. The Zephyr Regent seems like it could be a hidden gem though if found at a good price.

[Krenwin]

Does anyone has information of the Guild S 100
Let me know