How frowned upon is using guitar tablature?

[FattMusiek]

I'm sure this is a topic that's been raised before, but I'd like to start a new thread on it!

I've always regarded tabs as kind of a quick an easy approach to learning songs. There are a lot of bad tabs out there and many of them lack any sort of rhythmic notation other than the distance between the fret numbers. I know tabs are looked down upon completely by some, and there is a slight general negative connotation associated with learning songs by tab, to some degree. Let me know how you feel about it.

I find it easier to sightread on a piano than on the guitar because a piano is laid out the same way from low to high. On the guitar, there are little things that make it less consistent. The shape of a "standard" octave on the guitar on the E and A strings vs. octaves on the D string and higher, for example. I'm still more clumsy around the G and B strings compared to the lower strings because of this niche.

I've entered a jazz music competition, so I decided to tab out the melodies from the lead sheets of songs I might play. My sight-reading is slow and I have to get these melodies down 100%. With these tabbed out melodies, it's a lot easier to just start playing the thing rather than struggling (and becoming frustrated) with my slow sight-reading. I'm also considering playing a tune by Kenny Burrell or Grant Green, but I don't know if lead sheets are available- but I know tabs are. Probably can't submit a tab to the competition judges though.

Now I will say that my sight-reading on guitar and piano is faster than it's ever been, but when I'm in a situation like a jazz ensemble, there's just not enough time for me to actually sight-read. I "sight-figure-out" when we stop, always feeling like, "Ahhhhh.........dammit, I need more time!" Meanwhile I'm not listening to what's happening around me. What's more, I never really am able to play any melody that's notated right in front of me unless it's already in my muscle memory.

So take a tune like Four Brothers. I've been in this jazz ensemble for about a year and a half, two years. It was one of the first tunes I got a lead sheet for. Over this time I tried twice (honest efforts) to learn it, but it just seemed so damn hard. And I'd never retain the melody or the proper positions.

So to combat this I've been taking notes of positions and shapes on lead sheets that are hard for me on guitar (most tunes) so I can just start where I left off last time and actually play a dang melody.

I don't plan on relying on tabbing out every single lead sheet melody before attempting to play it of course. That's weak and not professional. Tabbing out melodies and making notes might also help me in my sight-reading on guitar. I say this because if you look at the treble clef, there are five lines and four spaces. It's kind of confusing because it looks like a damn five string guitar. So maybe after doing these "tabscriptions" for a while, I'll begin to see that C note on the third space of the treble clef as "This C, this C, or this C" according to how it corresponds to the piano (C4, C5 etc) and what fret and string the standard notation says.

Would love to hear your feedback!

[markerhodes]

I buy manuscript books to write music in and use graph paper for tab. I like tab for two things: exercises and chords. I can "notate" a half-hour's worth of technical exercises on one side of a sheet of graph paper.
A lot of my early songs were jotted on notebook paper with chord names and hand-drawn tab lines to show a riff. I reserve the right to jot things down that way, but more I more, I prefer to write things out in musical notation.

If it came to a vote, I would *not* side with the anti-tab crowd. It helped me when I needed it.

[barrymclark]

This is the opinion of someone who didn't know really anything BUT tab for about 15 years:

It has its place... but as more of a quick reference sort of thing and I really don't recommend it when you are just starting out if you are really trying to get into music seriously.

Once you know how to read, then tabs are fine and even really helpful.

That is my opinion. ...and it's only an opinion.

I really wish I had steered clear of tabs until I really got staff reading down.

[mr. beaumont]

WHen I first started out, I'd write in the names of notes above passages with hard-to-read jumps or chromatics...but I figured I'd never really get the fretboard down if I relied on numbers.

How good is your fretboard knowledge?

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

WHen I first started out, I'd write in the names of notes above passages with hard-to-read jumps or chromatics...

I still do that sometimes! Especially with things I want to transpose.

[max_power]

Originally Posted by barrymclark

It has its place... but as more of a quick reference sort of thing

I agree fully. I use tab if I just came up with a chord voicing that I want to remember, or for some kind of technical exercise... but otherwise I think it's way overused. Not to sound like a jerk, FattMusiek, but I think that tabbing out the entirety of a piece of music is a waste of time and effort that would be better spent practicing sight reading, or even memorizing the melody. The fact that you've been playing with this ensemble for 2 years and still can't sight read tells me that you don't really want to learn. That's fine...not everyone learns to sight read, and there are of course many fantastic musicians that can't do it. However, it sounds like you're trying to justify your illiteracy by saying that tab is good enough...and, well, it's not. Again, I don't mean any offence.

[GodinFan]

Ditch the tab, learn Jimmy Bruno's Five Fingerings and work on reading better. I went from horrible to hero in one year that way.

[EinarG]

The first thing I learned when I took my first guitar lesson was that I should forget about tabs and start focusing on musical notation. I have never looked back. It's such a waste of time trying to memorize "the numbers of the neck", spend your time learning how to sight read. You'll be better off.

[pierre richard]

musical notation....!!!!

it is worth every hour you put into it...

time on your instrument....pierre

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Tab is awesome. In fact, if it wern't so hideously ugly to look at, it'd surly rank higher on the great list of marvelous musical marvels.

[FattMusiek]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

No offense taken. Some melodies are scary and just plain hard for me- Four Bros is one of them. My reading has improved over this time; I used to be completely clueless and afraid, whereas now I know that the only thing that will conquer those melodies is time and struggle.

I'll see how it goes with the few melodies I tabbed out and let you all know if it helped or hindered. I definitely agree that focusing on musical notation is the right way to go. I won't invest too much more time on tabbing out melodies. The next two weeks I have a lot of music to get down (Italian music gig this coming Thursday and the music competition the next week). I'll have a better chance of getting the handful of songs down in the short term using tab.

[SwingSwangSwung]

I hate to say it but if TAB has rhythmic values notated, I can site read it a lot better than I can standard notation. But that's because I grew up on tab.

I try to spend more time on standard notation these days. Peer pressure.

[mr. beaumont]

The real reason I'm such a stickler for notation is not because of reading, but because of communicating. TAB limits you to communicating with other guitar players. Standard notation is, well, standard.

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by max_power

The fact that you've been playing with this ensemble for 2 years and still can't sight read tells me that you don't really want to learn.

Geez, I don't know. Herb Ellis played on hundreds of recording sessions without being a good reader. (At least, I take him at his word that he wasn't a good reader.)

Mind you, I'm FOR learning to read as well as one can. But it's a myth that everyone who works in a studio is a super reader. And as for the bandstand---if Basie fired all the mediocre readers in his bands, his orchestra would've been reduced to a trio.

[max_power]

Originally Posted by markerhodes

Geez, I don't know. Herb Ellis played on hundreds of recording sessions without being a good reader. (At least, I take him at his word that he wasn't a good reader.)

In my post I specifically said that there are many great players who can't read.

[hot ford coupe]

I don't frown on tab if it's used in the right places. The reason I use tab at times is if I'm trying to duplicate another guitarists chord solo, etc., the tab can tell me where on the neck said guitarist played his solo. That way with a difficult passage, I don't have to reinvent the wheel so to speak. Otherwise it's notation all the way. I'm not a great reader but I'm getting better as I practice.

I agree with Mr. B that you can't communicate with other non guitarist musicians without standard notation and they can't communicate with you if all you know is tab. A lot of the songs I want to learn have never been translated to tab so by being able to read, I have a lot more options to choose from. Finally, for me to write out songs in tab from notation seems to be a waste of good time. I'd rather spend that time practicing my reading.

[czardas]

Compaired to many other instruments, it is generally more difficult to sight read music on the guitar. Perhaps less so for simple melodies, but for music with complicated chord voicings and tricky left hand position changes, finding the correct fingering becomes essential. Bear in mind that not all fingerings are given and that it is often down to the player to find the best solution. Most players rely on muscle memory when performing difficult changes: the score is often there to jog your (muscle) memory, after you have practised the piece.

IMO, it is advisable to persevere with developing your sight reading skills, but when it's on top, you should use whatever means you have at your disposal.

[max_power]

Originally Posted by czardas

Compaired to many other instruments, it is generally more difficult to sight read music on the guitar. Perhaps less so for simple melodies, but for music with complicated chord voicings and tricky left hand position changes, finding the correct fingering becomes essential.

I hear this a lot, but I really don't buy it at all. Sure, it's harder to sight read on the guitar than on, say, the saxophone. But other instruments have it at least as hard. Violinists and double bassists, like guitarists, have multiple places in which to play certain notes...but they don't even have frets. Not only do they have to sight read, but they also have to place their fingers in the exact right spot or else they'll sound out of tune. Try doing that while having to look away from your instrument at a sheet of paper.

Trumpeters, french horn players and trombonists have the opposite problem as guitarists: they have very few different ways to play notes. On a trumpet and french horn, there are only 8 possible note fingerings - the rest is all controlled by the player's embouchure. A trombone is similar, except that its slide has only 7 possible positions. Two different notes are played using the same fingering/slide position, but the way you blow into the instrument changes. Think about how much practice and control it would require to be able to do this and hit the correct pitches while sight reading - not to mention in general.

Pianists don't have it particularly difficult in terms of sight-reading-versus-instrument-layout, but they are fully expected to be able to read a grand staff - i.e. both treble and bass clef at the same time. No small feat, I assure you.

Add to this the fact that players of non-C-instruments are frequently expected to read from concert C sheet music, requiring them to sight transpose. All things considered, I would say that guitarists don't have it so bad.

The real reason that guitarists can't sight read is because the modern form of the guitar is a relatively new instrument, and accordingly it has a very weak, non-uniform pedagogy. The guitar is also an instrument that easily allows one to visualize patterns and shapes, which makes it very possible to play the instrument without knowing what notes you're playing. The piano is similarly visual, but of all the modern instruments the piano has the oldest, strongest and most uniform pedagogy, so nearly all great piano players are well versed in theory and can sight read well. It's also due to standard practices. The first thing you learn on most instruments is how to to sight read; the first thing you learn on guitar is how to play "Smoke On The Water".

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by markerhodes

Geez, I don't know. Herb Ellis played on hundreds of recording sessions without being a good reader. (At least, I take him at his word that he wasn't a good reader.)

Mind you, I'm FOR learning to read as well as one can. But it's a myth that everyone who works in a studio is a super reader. And as for the bandstand---if Basie fired all the mediocre readers in his bands, his orchestra would've been reduced to a trio.

How relevant would you say those references are to today's scene though? It seems with all the major players coming out of university music programs that it would be tough to be taken seriously as a professional jazz guitarist if one was not proficient in reading music.

I guess if you were just so bad ass that someone had to have you in their band, or if you could pick up things really fast by ear (or if you fronted your own band) it wouldn't matter but that seems it would be the exception not the rule on the pro circuit.

I'm not a professional jazz guitarist by any means so I'm just speculating!

[czardas]

Originally Posted by max_power

I hear this a lot, but I really don't buy it at all. Sure, it's harder to sight read on the guitar than on, say, the saxophone. But other instruments have it at least as hard. Violinists and double bassists, like guitarists, have multiple places in which to play certain notes...but they don't even have frets. Not only do they have to sight read, but they also have to place their fingers in the exact right spot or else they'll sound out of tune. Try doing that while having to look away from your instrument at a sheet of paper.

Sure, my statement was a generalization. Most of the instruments you mentioned are melodic instruments on which you would generally not play chord voicings. There are also less strings to worry about on the bass or violin. While it is true that many instruments require you to coordinate both hands to play one note, if you use fingerpicking or classical right hand techniques, things start to get pretty technical. The guitar is a monster.

I would go as far as to say that it would be practically impossible to sight read some music on the guitar (and various other instruments) without practising the piece at least a few times first: Transcriptions from other instruments do not always fit so easily on the fretboard, and there will nearly always be some finger movement that will require study to aquire fluidity. If you can sight read the music of let's say: J. S. Bach, Isaac Albeniz or Scott Joplin without previously having seen the score, I'd be very impressed if there were no mistakes.

Perhaps this is less relevant to a Jazz musician, but there are some styles of music not born out of a written or scholarly tradition that are difficult enough to write in a score, let alone read the thing. Music is so diverse, and its notation so limited.

[randalljazz]

all band leaders, horn players, etc, should be required to read guitar tablature...

[czardas]

Originally Posted by randalljazz

all band leaders, horn players, etc, should be required to read guitar tablature...

Yeah, and practice translating hieroglyphics into ancient greek. :P

[pierre richard]

it's like taking the music out of music...!!!

reading and playing classical music written for the guitar is a discipline I enjoy at least once a week...discipline,ie..training that develops self control and efficiency...

I also read and play clarinet studies as well as violin studies to sharpen my sight reading skills...but I have been doing it for many many years...it takes time and time on your instrument is most important...you can listen to great players and read great stories but you must spend time on your instrument...

pierre

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

TAB limits you to communicating with other guitar players. Standard notation is, well, standard.

This is true. And a great reason for learning to read / write music. HOWEVER, the flip side of this is that TAB is *for* guitar players and it does something musical notation doesn't: tells you *which* C note to hit.

In lots of guitar books for beginners that do not use tab, position / string indications are given so that the student plays in the right position with the right fingering.

[mr. beaumont]

Inevitably, someone comes in with the "great player who couldn't read" comment.

When I can play like Herb Ellis, then I get a pass.

And mind you, Herb said he wasn't a good reader, not that he couldn't read...Most musicians I meet are never satisfied with their reading ability--we're our own worst critic...I don't think I'm a good reader either--I'm a decent reader at best--I need to do it every day to keep up with it--it's not like riding a bike--but I'll still extol the virtues of reading, whether it's slowly and "word by word" or fluent sightreading...any ability puts you ahead of the person who can't.

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

How relevant would you say those references are to today's scene though? It seems with all the major players coming out of university music programs that it would be tough to be taken seriously as a professional jazz guitarist if one was not proficient in reading music.

This is easily answered. I have *never* --and doubt you have either---heard a guitarist play and then said, "Well, I can't tell if he's any good until I watch him sight read something."

It helps if you want gigs where you have to play unknown material on short notice. That's a big thing. But one can be a good jazz guitarist without being a good sight-reader. (Again, I'm not *against* being a good sight reader.)

[markerhodes]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Inevitably, someone comes in with the "great player who couldn't read" comment.

When I can play like Herb Ellis, then I get a pass.

And mind you, Herb said he wasn't a good reader, not that he couldn't read...

+ 1. I read every day and would take nothing for such ability as I have (-though I want more, and that's why I keep working at it.) Herb definitely *could* read. (Hell, he was a music major in college, right? I think he studied bass because there wasn't a guitar department available.)

Put me down as PRO reading. I work on at least one new tune a week, usually from the Real Book. I wish I were a faster reader.

But I think it's a *myth* that everyone who works in a studio is a SUPER reader. The better you are the better it is (---hhmm, that sounds like a song title) but how many of us here are even looking toward a future of studio work (-as a session player, handling whoever is booked for session number next)?

If that's your goal, work on your reading, sure. Work on it anyway, but let's not pretend that everyone who makes a living as a session player is a great reader. What makes a great session guitarist is being a versatile *player*.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Tablature has its place, is my opinion. As does sheet music.

As stated earlier, I think tab is best used to sketch out technical exercises and chord voices so you can work on them quickly and easily- but writing them out in sheet music is also useful, too.

Tablature has a rather long history- it was used as the lingua franca for lute players and was modified for use for guitarists- the only reason I prefer standard notation is that it is, as said, standard. I can pick up a piece for flute and start jamming (or could, if I could read better!). If I just use tab, I can't do that.

[fep]

Originally Posted by czardas

I would go as far as to say that it would be practically impossible to sight read some music on the guitar (and various other instruments) without practising the piece at least a few times first: Transcriptions from other instruments do not always fit so easily on the fretboard, and there will nearly always be some finger movement that will require study to aquire fluidity. If you can sight read the music of let's say: J. S. Bach, Isaac Albeniz or Scott Joplin without previously having seen the score, I'd be very impressed if there were no mistakes.

I think there are a small % of the players that can sight read fairly difficult pieces really well without having played or practiced the piece before.

I've heard that there are a handful of guitarists, maybe 5 to 10, that get 90% of the work in Hollywood and make a very good living doing it. Then there might be thousands of guitarists available for that other 10% and they can't make a living by only being studio musicians.

The reason those guitarists get all the work is they don't make mistakes and they get it right on the first take. If you're working on a soundtrack and the producer has a whole orchestra hired, plus engineers, and a studio... just think how much a mistake can cost that producer. Make too many mistakes and that producer will never hire you again. It's amazing how well those musicians sight read.

[paynow]

Originally Posted by fep

I think there are a small % of the players that can sight read fairly difficult pieces really well without having played or practiced the piece before.

I've heard that there are a handful of guitarists, maybe 5 to 10, that get 90% of the work in Hollywood and make a very good living doing it. Then there might be thousands of guitarists available for that other 10% and they can't make a living by only being studio musicians.

The reason those guitarists get all the work is they don't make mistakes and they get it right on the first take. If you're working on a soundtrack and the producer has a whole orchestra hired, plus engineers, and a studio... just think how much a mistake can cost that producer. Make too many mistakes and that producer will never hire you again. It's amazing how well those musicians sight read.

+1. And I'll add that they can nail any genre they're asked to, or at least approximate it, let's say for a jingle, so it falls into the "close enough for rock and roll" category.

I have two friends who are great jazz players, both can read very well. The one who gets all the studio work can play all other genres convincingly and has a full arsenal of effects that he puts to great use so he can give producers exactly what they are looking for. The other is a straight ahead, arch top, bebop guy.

Note my signature; I guess for HIM it wasn't hard. I also think his studio work was done in an era where you don't have to be so effects oriented.