Creep from Radiohead tonal key question?

**saponsky** · 06-03-2010, 11:35 AM

Ok ok i know creep is not jazz but here's some theory related question that's been bugging me... The original song is written in G major but the chord progression goes: G - B - C - Cm My question is, if the key is G why does B major sounds diatonic here??? Isn't it supposed to be Bm?

**mr. beaumont** · 06-03-2010, 11:44 AM

yes, it is.

I'm not sure I understand the phrase "sounds" diatonic?

That chord progression breaks another "rule" as well--the C minor. In the end you can analyze all of that, but I'm doubting radiohead did.

the thing to take from it is, the I--III (or I--III7), paticularly when followed by the IV, is a pretty common move...

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 06-03-2010, 11:52 AM

I'm banging my head, listening to it now. Oh wait, it got quiet again...

Anyhowdy, I hear the B as just a lower neighbor to the C. The basic progression is G C (I IV) and the rest is embellishment.

Oh wait. It's rockin' again.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-03-2010, 12:01 PM

I can't help but remember this comedy bit I once saw...Comedian on stage, with an electric guitar and a distortion pedal, taking famous 90's songs and changing the words to simply "this is the part my girlfriend likes" for the quiet part, then stepping on the pedal and screaming "THIS IS THE PART I LIKE!!!" over the loud part.

**billkath** · 06-03-2010, 12:05 PM

Was it my hero-Bill Bailey?

**mr. beaumont** · 06-03-2010, 12:12 PM

AH, you tube is blocked here at work...won't be able to tell till later.

**saponsky** · 06-03-2010, 12:19 PM

Ok I get it now so basically the B maj is like some kind of cadence from C maj. Got it. Mr B. I analyzed the C - Cm sequence, found there's a chromatic movement there from E -Eb - D. I agree that maybe radiohead never analyzed that haha. Thanks folks!

**Goofsus4** · 06-03-2010, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I can't help but remember this comedy bit I once saw...Comedian on stage, with an electric guitar and a distortion pedal, taking famous 90's songs and changing the words to simply "this is the part my girlfriend likes" for the quiet part, then stepping on the pedal and screaming "THIS IS THE PART I LIKE!!!" over the loud part.

Hilarious! I love comedians. That formula still exists in current pop music, but it reached epic proportions in the 90s. Quiet and ballady...then LOUD and head bangy. Lather...rinse...repeat.

**derek** · 06-04-2010, 01:03 PM

Creep is a great alt rock tune. Has all the classic elements, self deprecation, hot chick, moodiness, a tender ballady thing followed by a raw distorted tone that just slays. Genius.

Anyone have a CM arrangement of it I can borrow?

**bkdavidson** · 06-04-2010, 03:30 PM

If you really want to get technical and over-analytical about the chord progression, here goes. This would be an analysis from a classical standpoint, which usually does the best for explaining "rules" and how they're broken. The G is tonic, obviously. The B major chord is a V of vi, with the C being a Phrygian half-cadence. What that means, if you don't know, is that the B chord is leading you to Em, but instead resolves to C. There are two common tones to those chords (e & g), so that's how the ear "accepts" it. The Cm chord is mode mixture, a principle where chords from the parallel are borrowed (Cm is the iv chord in Gm).

I agree that this is just a great rock tune. And on the subject of comedians and pop music, have you guys seen this one?

There's a couple of F-bombs at the beginning. Don't watch this at work or with the kids around.

**fep** · 06-04-2010, 09:08 PM

Okay you're bringing my geek out... and since I just finished my music theory IV course...

Originally Posted by bkdavidson

The G is tonic, obviously. The B major chord is a V of vi,

I'll agree with that.

Originally Posted by bkdavidson

with the C being a Phrygian half-cadence. What that means, if you don't know, is that the B chord is leading you to Em, but instead resolves to C.

Can't agree with that one. The definition of a Phyrigian half cadence is that you are in a minor key and the iv in first inversion moves to a V in root position.

If you think of the B tonicizing the Em and consider the Em the temporary i chord. Then B to C is a V to a VI. That's the most common progression for a deceptive cadence.

Originally Posted by bkdavidson

The Cm chord is mode mixture, a principle where chords from the parallel are borrowed (Cm is the iv chord in Gm).

Borrowed chord, I agree with that. And a very common progression the IV to iv to I...

(G) Oh give me a (G7) home, where the (C) buffalo (Cm) roam and the (G) skys are not cloudy all (D7) day....

No broken rules here... just move along

P.S. and yes I'm feeling pretty stupid... (That college education is finally paying off.)

And edit.... great video.

And that B chord sure doesn't sound diatonic to me... it's got a D# in it, very non diationic.

**fivebells** · 06-04-2010, 09:42 PM

My favourite arrangement of "Creep":

**bkdavidson** · 06-05-2010, 02:20 AM

Can't agree with that one. The definition of a Phyrigian half cadence is that you are in a minor key and the iv in first inversion moves to a V in root position.

If you think of the B tonicizing the Em and consider the Em the temporary i chord. Then B to C is a V to a VI. That's the most common progression for a deceptive cadence.

It's been 12 years since Theory I. Some of the stuff I don't use everyday such as Phrygian half-cadences has gotten a little fuzzy, I'll admit. I thought about that movement as being a deceptive cadence, but I remembered that as being a V7 going to a vi. Again, it's been a while and apparently I'm wrong. Thanks for setting me straight, fep. To the OP, like he (and hopefully I) said, there's no major "rules" being "broken" here, but hopefully the progression makes more sense.

**fep** · 06-05-2010, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by bkdavidson

It's been 12 years since Theory I. Some of the stuff I don't use everyday such as Phrygian half-cadences has gotten a little fuzzy, I'll admit. I thought about that movement as being a deceptive cadence, but I remembered that as being a V7 going to a vi. Again, it's been a while and apparently I'm wrong. Thanks for setting me straight, fep. To the OP, like he (and hopefully I) said, there's no major "rules" being "broken" here, but hopefully the progression makes more sense.

Hi BK,

You are right... a V7 to a vi is a deceptive cadence and that is the most common deceptive cadence in a major key. In the example we have temporarily moved to a minor key (it's not actually a modulation but rather it's known as a tonicization).

From the glossary of my music theory text:

Deceptive cadence: A two-chord formula punctuating a musical thought, in which the dominant moves to any chord but the tonic. The chord most often substituted to the expected tonic is the submediant.

Oh the shame, I analyzed without listening to the tune. I just listened and I believe was wrong in calling it a cadence because the B to C is not the punctuation of a musical thought.

I think it would be better described as: The B is tonicizing the Em but doesn't resolve as expected; similar to a deceptive cadence.

But another explanation would be that it's a "chromatic-third relationship". In theory IV there where often two or three alternative explanations. I think chromatic-third is the best way to analyze this progression.

Again from the theory text:

Two triads whose roots are a third apart share two notes of the same letter name. In a diationic-third relationship, these two notes are common tones. However in a chromatic-third relationship, one or both tones are chromatically altered.

Viewed another way, a chromatic-third relationship exists between any two chords of the same quality (major or minor) a third apart, as in A major to C major or D minor to B minor.

Towards the end of the eighteenth century, composers seemed to develop a fascination with the fresh sound of particular chromatic-third relationships. Beethoven - and after him Schubert, Liszt, Brahms and Wagner - frequently juxtaposed both tonalities and chords so related.

**bkdavidson** · 06-05-2010, 03:57 PM

Fep, It seems that you enjoy geeking out about theory as much as I do. Awesome.

**On Sugar Hill** · 06-30-2010, 04:48 AM

It's definetely a V of vi. It just has a deceptive cadence. Deceptive cadences on a V of a minor chord resolve a half step up above the V. If it was supposed to resolve to Emaj instead of Em, it would resolve to C#m. Hope that makes sense.

**tonedeaf** · 06-30-2010, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by bkdavidson

If you really want to get technical and over-analytical about the chord progression, here goes. This would be an analysis from a classical standpoint, which usually does the best for explaining "rules" and how they're broken. The G is tonic, obviously. The B major chord is a V of vi, with the C being a Phrygian half-cadence. What that means, if you don't know, is that the B chord is leading you to Em, but instead resolves to C. There are two common tones to those chords (e & g), so that's how the ear "accepts" it. The Cm chord is mode mixture, a principle where chords from the parallel are borrowed (Cm is the iv chord in Gm).

This reminds me of a classic comedy scene of a math professor running through a grindingly difficult proof. At one point he declares "And then a miracle occurs." He then continues on in a completely unrelated context but winds up declaring the theorem proved.

**joseguitarvargas** · 02-28-2015, 02:12 AM

This is probably not at all what RadioHead was thinking but after analyzing the chords I have came to this conclusion. The song is actually in the third mode of E harmonic Minor. I played through the song a few times and B major sounds Correct and the C minor is actually a C sus#2, making the notes C, G, and D#, not Eb like A C minor is usually spelled. I would've never thought twice about this if it weren't for this question, thank you!