Begin Your Ideas, Lines, Phrases, etc. on any Note You Choose.

[GuyBoden]

Ugh, why would I ever start a line on the ONE?

He was making fun of me, not you.

It was a joke anyway

Sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick.

[ragman1]

We all right now? Phew.

Didn't anyone get it? Helluva lead-in... blah, blah, blah.... You Are The One

[ragman1]

I've had another go at this and it's still nonsense. It's like you're playing in the wrong key or something. Who said there were no wrong notes!

Excuse the hesitations, my brain was objecting to it. In fact, it cheated automatically by putting a pick-up before the F# or making the F# itself a pick-up. And it still sounds awful :-)

[StevenA]

I've had another go at this and it's still nonsense. It's like you're playing in the wrong key or something. Who said there were no wrong notes!

Excuse the hesitations, my brain was objecting to it. In fact, it cheated automatically by putting a pick-up before the F# or making the F# itself a pick-up. And it still sounds awful :-)

I think the lines you played were good, but when embracing non-diatonic harmony in a solo the tempo has to be moving at a pretty good clip, so the listener just gets a whiff of all that color.

[ragman1]

I think the lines you played were good, but when embracing non-diatonic harmony in a solo the tempo has to be moving at a pretty good clip, so the listener just gets a whiff of all that color.

Absolutely, but I'd already done that so I wanted to do it slower this time. Mind you, a lot of the 'color' was phoney simply because the solo was emphasizing the wrong notes. Adjust that and it would have been fine.

The thought I always have is that guitars aren't best for this. Saxes at full pelt can pretty well blow over anything. I was almost tempted to say blow anything over anything :-)

[PMB]

[ragman1]

Excellent! Although I was thinking each chord was a bar long, and probably the CM7 for two. Hey, it's my challenge, right? Except it was never meant to be a challenge at all. But, you know, I guess we like puzzles or something :-)

The idea was that Stephen said we could start on any note we like. Obviously true but he wasn't impressed by that because ordinary notes would be too 'usual', i.e. boring, I guess. So I chose awkward notes to act as the one. The F# over Dm is very dissonant.

Over the dominant anything will do but I chose the C because, although it's the 11, the G7 wants to resolve to C so it sounds like it's already resolved too early. And F is the famous avoid note over C, of course. So that was the idea there.

And it is actually quite tricky to make it sound good when played. But your example is perfection. Short, but perfection :-)

But we should go back to Stephen's thread which is really only about the necessity for effective resolutions. Which no one can argue with, really.

[StevenA]

Excellent! Although I was thinking each chord was a bar long, and probably the CM7 for two. Hey, it's my challenge, right? Except it was never meant to be a challenge at all. But, you know, I guess we like puzzles or something :-)

The idea was that Stephen said we could start on any note we like. Obviously true but he wasn't impressed by that because ordinary notes would be too 'usual', i.e. boring, I guess. So I chose awkward notes to act as the one. The F# over Dm is very dissonant.

Over the dominant anything will do but I chose the C because, although it's the 11, the G7 wants to resolve to C so it sounds like it's already resolved too early. And F is the famous avoid note over C, of course. So that was the idea there.

And it is actually quite tricky to make it sound good when played. But your example is perfection. Short, but perfection :-)

But we should go back to Stephen's thread which is really only about the necessity for effective resolutions. Which no one can argue with, really.

Well, it looks like you created a line!

[ragman1]

Stephen -

What would you call a good resolution? Does it matter where you start it?

[StevenA]

Stephen -

What would you call a good resolution? Does it matter where you start it?

chord tones are always agreeable. Delayed resolutions are a bit more daring. I would start with the and of beat 3 then 1/2 step above chord tone, whole step below, 1/2 step below, chord tone on beat 1 next measure. Classic.

[ragman1]

You can't play that every time.

[pamosmusic]

You can't play that every time.

This is like saying you can’t have ice cream for every meal.

Dont think anyone is saying they want to. And that doesn’t make it any less delicious.

As an aside … this is something Jim Hall does a lot. Instead of resolving snack on beat one, he’ll hit (say) a step above then drop down to a half step below, then land on the resolution note.

[ragman1]

But the thread is about where you begin your lines, not where, or how, you end them.

[pamosmusic]

But the thread is about where you begin your lines, not where, or how, you end them.

I mean … y’all were both just talking about resolutions, so I just went with it.

[ragman1]

Well, I did kick this off by asking what Stephen's idea of a good resolution was and he said a chord tone which is a good answer. But really my main question was 'Does it matter where you start?'. Which is in line with the thread subject.

[pamosmusic]

Well, I did kick this off by asking what Stephen's idea of a good resolution was and he said chord tone which is a good answer. But really my main question was 'Does it matter where you start?'. Which is in line with the thread subject.

And I believe the answer in the OP and elsewhere was “not as long as you resolve well”

[ragman1]

I was given a book once, courtesy of grahambop, which is transcriptions of Coltrane playing 2-5's. Here are some, from the diatonic to more complex stuff. It's very good.

I suppose it's then up to the reader how they resolve them, either to a I chord or some other.







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[pamosmusic]

I was given a book once, courtesy of grahambop, which is transcriptions of Coltrane playing 2-5's. Here are some, from the diatonic to more complex stuff. It's very good.

I suppose it's then up to the reader how they resolve them, either to a I chord or some other.







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One of the G7s starts on F# and doesn’t resolve to F or G immediately. Another starts on C and doesn’t resolve to B immediately.

The former is part of a G#m7 arpeggio, which would be a more adventurous version of a straightforward tritone sub.

The latter is part of an Ab major triad that feels like sort of a side-slipping chord depending.

For what it’s worth, those lines are perfect examples of what I was talking about way back at the beginning of this thread:

Another way to think about it is that you might learn a cool, simple Grant green lick over a minor chord. Could you also play the lick on the third of a major chord to get a nice sound? Sure. The sixth of a major chord? Sure. Could you replace the minor triad with a major triad so you get the same vocabulary with a major sound? Sure. Could you play it from the fifth to get a nice sound? Sure. Could you play it from the flat second and resolve it like a side-slip? Sure. From the seventh like a side-slip? Sure.

You very rapidly get to a place where you can play this lick in basically every possible relationship to the chord you’re on and it will work.

[ragman1]

Absolutely, no argument from me.

[pamosmusic]

Absolutely, no argument from me.

Oh. Okay, cool

[GuyBoden]

Careful, people might start to think this is a Jazz Guitar Forum and not 'Bona Fide Psychological Typing Therapy'.

[StevenA]

I was given a book once, courtesy of grahambop, which is transcriptions of Coltrane playing 2-5's. Here are some, from the diatonic to more complex stuff. It's very good.

I suppose it's then up to the reader how they resolve them, either to a I chord or some other.







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Rag, These examples have your criteria: F# over G7 ( might as well be Dm7as they readily sub for one another) and C over a G7!
See, you think like Coltrane!

[ragman1]

See, you think like Coltrane!

I probably do, but when I do it nobody cares :-)

[pamosmusic]

Oh lord.

[ragman1]

Yes, my son?

I don't think they'll be opening the Church of St. Rag just yet