Keyboardists, know our pain

[Christian Miller]

It took me 2 years of serious practice before the fretboard 'locked in' for me. I'd say it was more of a time on the instrument thing as opposed to any particular exercise.

Any new voicing or scale/tonality, number of notes per string, tune increases fret board awareness. It's a lifelong thing for guitarists and it's comparatively immediate for pianists.

I've also seen newer jazz players try to really focus on the 'hard practice' bc they got the advice to practice the things that others avoid to get good and end up not playing much actual music bc they spent all day working on fretboard awareness.

that too is a trap. But I think as long as you focus on learning this stuff through tunes it’s ok. I would probably not spend much time working on drops and voicings at first, but I would always suggest spending time learning triads and sevenths through tunes in a few places on the neck. It’s not that bad actually, but it needs work for most students to get them away from just playing arpeggios up and down and start making connections between the chords and melodic ideas.

[pauln]

Different instruments are different in different ways.
One of the more interesting differences; "sharability".

Imagine ranking instruments by how much permission is assumed needed before playing it

The piano is the least; except for something like a Bösendorfer grand on a concert stage between just being tuned and the subsequent concert, all pianos are basically "public". Anyone can go directly over to one and play it without permission

Next would be drum kits at clubs

Next would be instruments played by mouth

Guitars seem to be near the extreme, along with old orchestra instruments by fine makers, so "private" can't even touch them without permission

[GuyBoden]

that too is a trap. But I think as long as you focus on learning this stuff through tunes it’s ok. I would probably not spend much time working on drops and voicings at first, but I would always suggest spending time learning triads and sevenths through tunes in a few places on the neck. It’s not that bad actually, but it needs work for most students to get them away from just playing arpeggios up and down and start making connections between the chords and melodic ideas.

Yes, beware, the human brain is great at finding visual patterns, I try to concentrate on hearing patterns and not rely too much on seeing patterns. But, I find seeing patterns on the fretboard much easier than hearing them.

[Christian Miller]

Different instruments are different in different ways.
One of the more interesting differences; "sharability".

Imagine ranking instruments by how much permission is assumed needed before playing it

The piano is the least; except for something like a Bösendorfer grand on a concert stage between just being tuned and the subsequent concert, all pianos are basically "public". Anyone can go directly over to one and play it without permission

Next would be drum kits at clubs

Next would be instruments played by mouth

Guitars seem to be near the extreme, along with old orchestra instruments by fine makers, so "private" can't even touch them without permission

Blimey that’s not been my experience. People help themselves - at least with acoustic guitars

[Lionelsax]

Guitarists are wonderful, they can play things that nobody can.
Especially blues in G#, D#, A# and E# !

[ccroft]

I enjoyed your vid Christian! Over the course of my guitar life, I've referred to it at various times as a contraption, a jerry rig, a Rube Goldberg device, and an instrument designed by the Devil himself.

I also find it a marvellous thing to work with. I've been deeply obsessed for a very long time.

(I really should work more on playing the chord tones...)

[AllanAllen]

what I showed in the video - learning chord tones all over the neck, starting with triads

Any tune, start with the chord tones

its not discussed much in piano because it’s easy to see where these notes are on the piano once you know how to make the chord, but guitar this takes a bit of work.

that way you can spell out the changes clearly and build up and out from there

so, the Aebersold way.

[pamosmusic]

Yes, beware, the human brain is great at finding visual patterns, I try to concentrate on hearing patterns and not rely too much on seeing patterns. But, I find seeing patterns on the fretboard much easier than hearing them.

This is interesting … I have a few students who used to play horns and they get super frustrated when they play a thing without knowing the note names on it and I tell them that this is just how guitar works. It’s just a visual/tactile instrument. You should hear stuff too, but that’s a super abstract concept too. I don’t know … I’m pretty unbothered by the fact that I kind of see/feel my way through stuff a lot of the time.

I very seriously doubt any instrument really thinks about notes while they’re playing, anyway. I think the frustration for reformed horn players is that on guitar you can play a note without ever learning what the name of it is.

[Lionelsax]

I very seriously doubt any instrument really thinks about notes while they’re playing, anyway. I think the frustration for reformed horn players is that on guitar you can play a note without ever learning what the name of it is.

It can be true if you don't play in the twelve keys or if you play diatonic accordion or harmonica.
I know someone you play a three row diatonic accordion (GCF) despite this limitation he can play something in every key (a lot of limitations) because he knows how his instrument works.
What you describe can be called the E# blues syndrome.

[pamosmusic]

What you describe can be called the E# blues syndrome.

This sounds serious. Should I seek medical attention?

[Lionelsax]

This sounds serious. Should I seek medical attention?

If you keep it for you and don't talk about it, you don't risk anything.

[kris]

It's easier to talk about the guitar than to play the guitar.

[frabarmus]

It's easier to talk about the guitar than to play the guitar.

Sometimes it's the other way around...

[Christian Miller]

so, the Aebersold way.

is it? I forget tbh.

you know Jamie gets a bit of flack in some circles, but from what I remember his advice is generally sound imo if one takes the time to read it.

Jamie is also a sax player - which means you have to do this stuff as well. Sax players often play piano to help them map it all out, and I think that’s a good idea for guitar too.

[Christian Miller]

This is interesting … I have a few students who used to play horns and they get super frustrated when they play a thing without knowing the note names on it and I tell them that this is just how guitar works. It’s just a visual/tactile instrument. You should hear stuff too, but that’s a super abstract concept too. I don’t know … I’m pretty unbothered by the fact that I kind of see/feel my way through stuff a lot of the time.

I very seriously doubt any instrument really thinks about notes while they’re playing, anyway. I think the frustration for reformed horn players is that on guitar you can play a note without ever learning what the name of it is.

I don’t know most horn players are much better readers than most guitarists. They probably have a much more intimate mental connection between note names and playing.

I’ve heard some players saying the imagine the piano keyboard when soloing on a horn, which is visual too, but just in a way that connects more to notation too. Notation itself is of course visual.

[kris]

Sometimes it's the other way around...

do you mean jazz guitar ?

[frabarmus]

do you mean jazz guitar ?

Sometimes (and/or for some) it is easier to play something than to explaine it... especially at fast tempos (especially when improvising).
Also, someone like Wes, for instance... for him it must have been much easier to play the guitar than to talk about it; or, I imagine, he was more interested in playing than talking about it. But ok... for us "ordinary mortals" it's a different story, I suppose

Having said that, "talking about it" is a skill in itself and might be helpful aswell... cause, let's face it: we've got to know/learn our stuff, whether or not we're also able to explain it. A teacher, of course, needs to be good at talking, aswell.

[Christian Miller]

Well I find it quite hard to explain what I'm doing. TBH if I'm thinking about it while I play it, it doesn't come out on the gig.

I learned it in quite a step by step way so I can break it down, but in the moment? Of course not.

I doubt anyone else is any different. We are all running the same hardware (mostly)

[frabarmus]

Well I find it quite hard to explain what I'm doing. TBH if I'm thinking about it while I play it, it doesn't come out on the gig.

Same here, I would have to listen to a recording of what I've played and take the time to analise it.

[pamosmusic]

Well I find it quite hard to explain what I'm doing. TBH if I'm thinking about it while I play it, it doesn't come out on the gig.

I learned it in quite a step by step way so I can break it down, but in the moment? Of course not.

I doubt anyone else is any different. We are all running the same hardware (mostly)

Yeah this is what I meant. But it’s been illuminating to be diagnosed with E# Blues Syndrome. Explains so much.

Whats worse, I have the “For Alice” subvariant.

[Lionelsax]

I don’t know most horn players are much better readers than most guitarists. They probably have a much more intimate mental connection between note names and playing.

I’ve heard some players saying the imagine the piano keyboard when soloing on a horn, which is visual too, but just in a way that connects more to notation too. Notation itself is of course visual.

Yes, you get it that's it !
People who play with positions and formulas get lost very quickly.
Two things changed my guitar playing, the melodica (I didn't play melodies on the keyboard before that) and the looper.
Although I'm still a shit on guitar and all instruments, people now trust me when I'm playing the guitar because I don't think of positions and formulas anymore.
I know what I'm playing, even if it can sound like shit, I'm not lost.
You understand it very well, I see notes and chords, maybe a keyboard but I'm not sure. I wish I could see rhythm the same way too.

I figured out I was able to sing a bit what I want to play before playing it.

[frabarmus]

Two things changed my guitar playing, the melodica (I didn't play melodies on the keyboard before that) and the looper.

How did the looper change your guitar playing? Also in the context of freeing yourself from positions and formulas?
(Of course the looper is a wonderful practice-tool, I use it, too).

Thanks

[Lionelsax]

How did the looper change your guitar playing? Also in the context of freeing yourself from positions and formulas?
(Of course the looper is a wonderful practice-tool, I use it, too).

Thanks

The looper : practice, assimilate tunes, listening to what I play, how to comp, voicings. It helped me a lot. It really changed my life and I'm not kidding.

[emanresu]

I would love to play tight chord voicings like you could in M3. And learn everything in 3 fingerings instead 9.
Yet... once it is "done" with guitar on standard tuning, all those craziness with fingerings. It is done. It takes stupidly long time but
maybe I'm stupid. Anyway - piano is a brilliant instrument but guitar feels like honey.

The thing in the OP - yeah! I remeber finding it out in 2nd year in jazz school by myself - left hand plays chords
and right hand starts automatically "dancing around" those chord notes - at the time when all I could play on guitar was
pentatonic scale on Blue Bossa or something. Felt like life is unfair for guitar players.

[AllanAllen]

Hey Christian.

I watched the video and I’m wondering why one should learn arpeggios for Dm G7 CM7 when the C major scale covers it all.

I know it’s standard advice, but understanding the ii V I is based off the I simplifies things.