Scale outlining "All Of Me"

[djg]

What I like about this solo is that you can feel that Kenny Barron plays from the melody which always "shines through" a little (for lack of a better verb ATM) and I mean that beyond the literally quoted phrases.

interesting. i find the solo rather formulaic with KB rattling down the standard devices. he plays the same calculated Ab+ stuff over the D7 twice and the same dreaded alt lick over almost every G7. to me this would be a good example of a player just running the changes. and i usually like KB a lot.

this i like

[kris]

Yes, I mean the whole tune like I had written. In videos like this a solo comes out of nowhere. I imagine a young player who has not listened to much jazz yet and wants to learn. Shouldn't he learn how a good solos develops out of what comes before? What I have described as "the melody shining through", how should he recognize that without knowing how Kenny Barron interprets the melody (and i am shure BTW that KB plays the melody with the lyrics in mind)?

There's too aspects, one is "micro" and one is "macro". Only working on the "micro" aspect results in a bunch of licks over a row of chords ...

No exaggeration. It's a simple melody.
Therefore, beginners should listen to music first of all and learn tunes.
Solo KB is too hard for a beginner.
It's ok for an intermediate level.I think so.

[kris]

interesting. i find the solo rather formulaic with KB rattling down the standard devices. he plays the same calculated Ab+ stuff over the D7 twice and the same dreaded alt lick over almost every G7. to me this would be a good example of a player just running the changes. and i usually like KB a lot.

this i like

Where is Tristano playing All Of Me changes?

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Where is Tristano playing All Of Me changes?

It is clearly there (in Ab major). Piano comes only in at measure 9, no chords written before that in the transcription.

[djg]

Where is Tristano playing All Of Me changes?

key of Ab, bass starts on top, piano comes in bar nine (take my lips)

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

[...] bar nine (take my lips) [...]

Knowing the lyrics makes it easy to communicate certain spots in a tune (besides helping a lot with internalizing the form, at least for me).

I always envy native speakers a little as it is easier for them to understand the lyrics. On the other hand not being a native speaker myself, maybe it takes a little longer for me to remember the lyrics but they last longer in long-term memory.

[kris]

key of Ab, bass starts on top, piano comes in bar nine (take my lips)

Great SOLO!!!
All clear.
Do you play it on guitar?
A powerful dose of musical and technical knowledge.
thanks
kris

[kris]

Parker with Tristano... key of Ab:

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Great SOLO!!!
All clear.
Do you play it on guitar?
A powerful dose of musical and technical knowledge.
thanks
kris

Tristano slowed down the tape speed when recording this solo AFAIK. Not criticizing, just saying.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Parker with Tristano... key of Ab:

That's key of F ...

EDIT: Sorry, my fault, notated for alto (Eb).

[bediles]

That's key of F ...

Alto sax key

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Parker with Tristano... key of Ab:

Interesting: Parker seems to see the minor chords in meas. 7 and 23 ("without you" in both cases) as a momentary modulation to Bbm (assuming key of Ab) as well. So the Bbm is not a Bbm7 (IIm7) for him but a Bbm6 or simply a Bbm; an Eb7 dominant scale outline like in the OP would be wrong.

[kris]

This Ab key is very comfortable....that's why Parker likes key o Ab...Donna Lee...:-)

[Bobby Timmons]

Interesting: Parker seems to see the minor chords in meas. 7 and 23 ("without you" in both cases) as a momentary modulation to Bbm (assuming key of Ab) as well. So the Bbm is not a Bbm7 (IIm7) for him but a Bbm6 or simply a Bbm; an Eb7 dominant scale outline like in the OP would be wrong.

Tonicizing. I like that effect. Parker outlines the chords so well and is so musical at the same time. I forget why he's my favorite soloist for a bit until I hear that mastery again.

[AllanAllen]

Yes, I mean the whole tune like I had written. In videos like this a solo comes out of nowhere. I imagine a young player who has not listened to much jazz yet and wants to learn. Shouldn't he learn how a good solos develops out of what comes before? What I have described as "the melody shining through", how should he recognize that without knowing how Kenny Barron interprets the melody (and i am shure BTW that KB plays the melody with the lyrics in mind)?

There's too aspects, one is "micro" and one is "macro". Only working on the "micro" aspect results in a bunch of licks over a row of chords ...

I would think they find a version of the song they like then search out a transcription. Searching for "Kenny Barron all of me transcription" instead of "All of me transcription"

[Christian Miller]

Interesting: Parker seems to see the minor chords in meas. 7 and 23 ("without you" in both cases) as a momentary modulation to Bbm (assuming key of Ab) as well. So the Bbm is not a Bbm7 (IIm7) for him but a Bbm6 or simply a Bbm; an Eb7 dominant scale outline like in the OP would be wrong.

Do people not treat that chord as modulation?

[pamosmusic]

Do people not treat that chord as modulation?

Interesting. Yeah the melody over the prior chord kind of suggests a modulation, doesn’t it.

Never thought much about it but I’ve always played it like it’s fully tonicized.

[kris]

Great SOLO!!!
All clear.
Do you play it on guitar?
A powerful dose of musical and technical knowledge.
thanks
kris

Amazing ...really...

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Do people not treat that chord as modulation?

No. See Rintincop's original post, he plays a G7 dominant scale over an Dm7 in the key of C. I could accept a Dm7 as vi in the key of F (=> play F major scale outline or F major up from 6th) instead of a Dm6 minor tonic, but interpreting the Dm7 as G7's important minor sounds totally wrong to my ears. This is why this video is so important: Not every minor seventh chord is an "important minor" (II chord).

One must not say mechanically "Minor seventh chord? Outline with dominant scale a fourth above resp. use dominant scale a fourth above for improvisation."

EDIT: Rintincop may forgive my criticism regarding this, I really appreciate the material he is sharing here with the forum.

[rpjazzguitar]

There's a "family" of four dominants (E7 G7 Bb7 Db7) that occur naturally in the diminished (scale). Bop players would interchange (substitute) among the four related dominant (Mixolydian) scales freely.
Here are some Barry Harris-inspired outlines of the chord changes to "All Of Me".
In measures 3-4 we see a scale substitution of playing a G7 scale over the E7 chord. It is one that Harris favored, especially over a minor key ii V such as B-7b7 E7b9.
You’ve probably heard of the popular tritone substitution of the Bb7 scale over E7.
____________________________________________
Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and also helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book."

Over the E7, he plays a G7 scale (G Mixo) except for one note. He plays a G#, rather than a G. This looks to me like an adjustment of C tonal center to accommodate the G# within E7. I hesitate to post about theory, but the notes are not Gmixo, they're A harmonic minor. My preference, stated in another post, is to think about the tonal center (Cmajor) and adjust the chords to accommodate notes that aren't within Cmajor, which is done in the exercise.

[Christian Miller]

No. See Rintincop's original post, he plays a G7 dominant scale over an Dm7 in the key of C. I could accept a Dm7 as vi in the key of F (=> play F major scale outline or F major up from 6th) instead of a Dm6 minor tonic, but interpreting the Dm7 as G7's important minor sounds totally wrong to my ears. This is why this video is so important: Not every minor seventh chord is an "important minor" (II chord).

One must not say mechanically "Minor seventh chord? Outline with dominant scale a fourth above resp. use dominant scale a fourth above for improvisation."

EDIT: Rintincop may forgive my criticism regarding this, I really appreciate the material he is sharing here with the forum.

I know this video. This isn’t the same situation to ATTYA. You’ve taken what Barry says here as a blanket rule when as always there’s nuance.

The nuance here is that the Dm chord in All of Me is proceeded by an A7 chord with a Bb in the melody. As a result it suggests a temporary modulation to Dm (ii) and i tend to hear it that way.

Also I wouldn’t play Dm7 here. After being tonicised the chord effectively pivots to being a IVm in the relative minor - and this a move you see a fair bit actually. Dm6 is fine in that bar.

I’m not surprised at Parker - if you transcribe a decent amount of Bird you’ll realise he has a natural tendency to tonicise ii chords by leaning into the b9 on VI7. More so than swing era musicians i would say. But All of Me does this in the melody, so it’s a strong feature of the song I would say.

I did do this tune with Barry once, I think that’s what he did here too.

I’d quite like to hear a counter example. I can imagine Charlie Christian playing it differently for example.

[Christian Miller]

Just to underline this point re All of Me - examples of songs that DON’T do this b9 move into IIm7 would include East of the Sun and the original version of Out of Nowhere (not the Rb version.) Theres still a VI7 chord, but not b9.

Of course that doesn’t stop people from playing b9 on the VI in their solos … people vary on how much they respect the melody in their solos.

Anyway it’s not a blanket rule. Different songs are, well, different

[djg]

One must not say mechanically "Minor seventh chord? Outline with dominant scale a fourth above resp. use dominant scale a fourth above for improvisation."

indeed. barry is explaining here that not all min7s are created equal. thankfully this is general knowledge these days. but he#s talking about the iii chord. making the ii chord a temporary tonic is a related yet different subject. it goes back at least to honeysuckle rose.

[Christian Miller]

indeed. barry is explaining here that not all min7s are created equal. thankfully this is general knowledge these days. but he#s talking about the iii chord. making the ii chord a temporary tonic is a related yet different subject. it goes back at least to honeysuckle rose.

I mean, it does, there’s this guy Bach of course.

The B section of Alone Together is a common Schema in C18 music called a Fonte and that tonicises the ii.

Behold an internet nutter made a compilation

[rpjazzguitar]

I know this video. This isn’t the same situation to ATTYA. You’ve taken what Barry says here as a blanket rule when as always there’s nuance.

The nuance here is that the Dm chord in All of Me is proceeded by an A7 chord with a Bb in the melody. As a result it suggests a temporary modulation to Dm (ii) and i tend to hear it that way.

Also I wouldn’t play Dm7 here. After being tonicised the chord effectively pivots to being a IVm in the relative minor - and this a move you see a fair bit actually. Dm6 is fine in that bar.

I’m not surprised at Parker - if you transcribe a decent amount of Bird you’ll realise he has a natural tendency to tonicise ii chords by leaning into the b9 on VI7. More so than swing era musicians i would say. But All of Me does this in the melody, so it’s a strong feature of the song I would say.

I did do this tune with Barry once, I think that’s what he did here too.

I’d quite like to hear a counter example. I can imagine Charlie Christian playing it differently for example.

Another viewpoint for the Dm. Let's look at four minor possibilities -- every combination of b6 6 b7 7. Aka, dorian, melodic, harmonic and natural minor.

To my ear, the Bb note doesn't work that well. The A7b9 with the Bb in the melody wants that Bb to move to A. That rules out (well, nothing is really ruled out if you can construct a good enough line) harmonic minor and natural minor. Although, I can sort of hear harmonic minor as okay..

The next choice is C vs C#. I like C#.

That is, I like the B and the C#, which is D melodic minor. I also like moving the D down in halfsteps to make minmaj m7 m6.

One interesting thing is that using Levine's rule about every melodic minor chord being the same chord doesn't seem to work quite so well in a situation like this where the harmony calls for a minor tonic type sound. The other voicings tend sound more dominant to me -- that is, they could preceed the resultion to the Dminor tonic sound, e.g. C#7#9 to Dm6 or Dminmaj7. That may have been what Reg was driving at the other day.