What do you hear in Charles Altura's language?

[kris]

re: the cooking and movie analogy, these topics would be probably be discussed verbally with friends rather than say a cooking / movie Internet forum.
Yes, you can be a sophisticated connoisseur without being a practicing performer/ composer. Musicologists come to mind, which I would think adds value to their opinions.

Of course people that put their work out should be ready for any opinion. However, I don’t think they should be punished for releasing stuff into the public domain, which seems to happen here frequently, by mostly the same people. I didn’t really care for the Blanchard clip, but I didn’t feel an overwhelming urge to publicly lambast the players.

I also think making the effort to provide samples of your own works may create some checks and balances, knowing that people could also critique your work, you may be less hasty to use invective as your first response. Most, including your good self, provide civil reasoned responses. I take issue with the faceless keyboard warrior trolls who provide no demonstrable bonafides talking rubbish, with impunity it seems.

In my opinion, it is better to listen to the opinion of good players than non-players.

[Jimmy blue note]

In my opinion, it is better to listen to the opinion of good players than non-players.

Yes, and in my opinion, it is better to spend your time practicing so you can listen to what you hear, rather than the opinions of what others hear. Time to practice my rock phrasing.

[Marinero]

" Time to practice my rock phrasing." Jimmy blue note

Hi, J,
That won't take long! Just play "originals" and no one can criticize you . . . well . . . perhaps that's a little strong!
Marinero

[Jimmy blue note]

" Time to practice my rock phrasing." Jimmy blue note

Hi, J,
That won't take long! Just play "originals" and no one can criticize you . . . well . . . perhaps that's a little strong!
Marinero

I'm transcribing this now. It's HARD!!!! Listen to the way they play around the beat! If you ever thought rock was just sex drugs and no talent, you haven't studied this...obviously

[kris]

[citizenk74]

Well, I would say his playing is not without interest but perhaps not quite my cup of tea. The biggest problem I have with him is that he doesn't balance well; he was so loud with the first clip that the sax player is almost inaudible, and it is clearly her band. And in the second clip, he was still louder than everybody else in the band including Terence Blanchard who is, presumably, the person fronting the band. I don't get a sense that he's paying a lot of attention to the other musicians. But, that is just two clips. And, as has been pointed out, he has played with some pretty heavy weight musicians so clearly they are hearing some thing in his playing that they really like. Otherwise they would've hired somebody else.

Putting up John Abercrombie or Kenny Burrell clips creates a very high bar for any guitarist to get over. At the time of those recordings, both of those guys were deeply seasoned masters of the music and perhaps not a fair comparison developmentally. I certainly wouldn't want to be compared to either of those guys! The Abercrombie clip really gets me; Gateway was an astonishing band.

A very thoughtful post, as always. I would simply comment that the actual mix is frequently beyond the control of the artist. The sound in the room may have been well balanced. I know some of my best playing has wound up in some of the worst mixes. The sound person can make you or break you. I used to step out front to hear what the audience was hearing and had to stop because I was so often horrified by what the sound person was doing to my carefully crafted tone. As a bone of contention, this was Brontosaurus-Class.

[Jimmy blue note]

DAAAAAANG!!!! This is great! An example of attention shining a light on something that most people dismiss and deride before they even start to listen. (Any apparent similarities to any person or persons real or fictional is strictly coincidental.)
Thanks Kris. How'd you FIND this clip?

[st.bede]

One man's "Evolution" is the other guy's "Devolution"... dunno, but in answer to an earlier post - I always thought Berg's "Wozzeck" was high Art , with a capital "A" and everything.

So what would I know?

... just to clarify, I was using Berg as an example of neo-classical attempt to create pure music that is based on a systematic approach...

if we assume that system is at the height of compositional technique, and if technique is the most important element, then why would I listen to anything else.

However, music is a mixture of so many elements. What I am drawn to, is how those elements are utilized. If an artist uses those elements in a certain way, that is akin to my own particular understanding of art, I dig it.

My own vision/spirit/voice is what I am trying to actualize in my art. (I am lucky, that my spirit is also commercially viable, to a certain degree). My like or dislike is not based on a set of cannon-ish rules, but an personal language. There is no, “my road, or the highway”, but a “all roads lead to Rome”.

[st.bede]

Regarding criticism: it can be an important tool. It can allow someone to bring to consciousness, elements that are not noticed by the progenitor. However, it can also be completely destructive (in a negative sense... destruction is a tricky thing, sometimes it is very important... I have many thought about that but that not topical).

For criticism to be positive, the person offering the criticism has to have a knowledgeable vision. That understanding needs to be explained and not held as truth but as a possibility. .... hence, why the criticism we receive from non musicians sound crazy... if we have studied so hard, we better have a little more insight ...

Not that non-musicians criticism are meaningless. They have not developed the vocabulary to express themselves. They are really saying the same thing we are: my spirit/voice is akin or not akin to yours... I just realized that playing music live is like going on many dates all at the same time. That makes stage presence, like showing your best side and thoughtfully talking up yourself.

[kris]

DAAAAAANG!!!! This is great! An example of attention shining a light on something that most people dismiss and deride before they even start to listen. (Any apparent similarities to any person or persons real or fictional is strictly coincidental.)
Thanks Kris. How'd you FIND this clip?

I accidentally found it - the internet is powerful.

[Christian Miller]

Well, I would say his playing is not without interest but perhaps not quite my cup of tea. The biggest problem I have with him is that he doesn't balance well; he was so loud with the first clip that the sax player is almost inaudible, and it is clearly her band. And in the second clip, he was still louder than everybody else in the band including Terence Blanchard who is, presumably, the person fronting the band. I don't get a sense that he's paying a lot of attention to the other musicians.

OK I would say this is an unfair conclusion.

from my own experience playing in these types of settings, I’m thinking this has very little to do with Charles on stage sound and everything to do with the mixing. The mix in the first video is terrible. The mix in the second is much much better (as one would expect) but a bit guitar dominant.

As far as the NPR thing goes, my experience would be that in the live-streaming game the mix has relatively little to do with the sound in the room. Everything is close miced or di’d.the mix is up to the engineer and clearly he/she likes guitar!

On the other hand the first vid was clearly just a mix from the desk, probably straight stereo out to a zoom recorder or something so the mix couldn’t be changed. I’ve done recordings like that and they are rarely ideal.

i don’t know why but sound engineers seem to like loud guitars. I had to send the mix for my album back a few times to get the guy to turn the guitar lower in the mix lol. And I’m the guitarist and band leader!

maybe it’s from listening to rock? Dunno.

[sgosnell]

I've seen videos in which the drummer (and many other instruments) were so loud that nothing else could be heard clearly. Usually it was because the recording equipment was a smartphone, positioned next to the drums (or the trombone, or whatever). It's hard to get a balanced recording outside the studio, which faithfully reproduces what the band heard, and the individual band members rarely hear what the audience hears.

As for Altura, he's not my favorite guitarist. But neither are most of the others. If only my favorites, or even those I enjoy listening to, were allowed to perform, 99.9999999999999999999% of the worlds guitarists would be doing something else. The center of the universe is elsewhere, and while my opinions are valid for me, I'm not the only person on earth with opinions.

[Peter C]

If only my favorites, or even those I enjoy listening to, were allowed to perform, 99.9999999999999999999% of the worlds guitarists would be doing something else. The center of the universe is elsewhere, and while my opinions are valid for me, I'm not the only person on earth with opinions.

+ 1,000

[charlieparker]

Honestly, I don't get all the angst about Marinero's critique. This is just an informal message board where people are expressing opinions. I don't see the problem.

Jazz is a wide art form with a long history and diverse voices. I doubt any of us like all of it. Wynton Marsalis probably also has a very strong opinion on what is good jazz and what isn't.

[kris]

OK I would say this is an unfair conclusion.

from my own experience playing in these types of settings, I’m thinking this has very little to do with Charles on stage sound and everything to do with the mixing. The mix in the first video is terrible. The mix in the second is much much better (as one would expect) but a bit guitar dominant.

As far as the NPR thing goes, my experience would be that in the live-streaming game the mix has relatively little to do with the sound in the room. Everything is close miced or di’d.the mix is up to the engineer and clearly he/she likes guitar!

On the other hand the first vid was clearly just a mix from the desk, probably straight stereo out to a zoom recorder or something so the mix couldn’t be changed. I’ve done recordings like that and they are rarely ideal.

i don’t know why but sound engineers seem to like loud guitars. I had to send the mix for my album back a few times to get the guy to turn the guitar lower in the mix lol. And I’m the guitarist and band leader!

maybe it’s from listening to rock? Dunno.

+1
A very correct way of thinking.
Blaming the guitarist for the proportions in the final mix is an absurd.
YouTube concerts are not CDs.The fact that these are digital recordings does not mean that the overall mix is good.
I had a live recorded once and I didn't publish it on YouTube because my guitar was too loud...

[kris]

Honestly, I don't get all the angst about Marinero's critique. This is just an informal message board where people are expressing opinions. I don't see the problem.

Jazz is a wide art form with a long history and diverse voices. I doubt any of us like all of it. Wynton Marsalis probably also has a very strong opinion on what is good jazz and what isn't.

It is not like that.
In my opinion, this is a specific place.
Sometimes it is difficult to guess the critic's intentions.
And the critic himself does it in a controversial way: this is the internet.
Where have I heard this?

[Jazzism]

Honestly, I don't get all the angst about Marinero's critique. This is just an informal message board where people are expressing opinions. I don't see the problem.

Jazz is a wide art form with a long history and diverse voices. I doubt any of us like all of it. Wynton Marsalis probably also has a very strong opinion on what is good jazz and what isn't.

Really? Think you answered this your self. If Wynton Marsalis expresses an opinion, he’s got the pedigree and runs on the board for anything he has to say to be considered, regardless of how controversial or unpopular with some it may be. Sure, no one likes everything, but the guy is playing with high level players, how about a bit of fucking respect in your critique uh? If you don’t know any better, go and ask real pro’s over at modern jazz guitar and bass what they think of publicly calling out Charles Altura as an annoying rock guitarist? In fact I may just do that myself.

[Litterick]

Really? Think you answered this your self. If Wynton Marsalis expresses an opinion, he’s got the pedigree and runs on the board for anything he has to say to be considered, regardless of how controversial or unpopular with some it may be. Sure, no one likes everything, but the guy is playing with high level players, how about a bit of fucking respect in your critique uh? If you don’t know any better, go and ask real pro’s over at modern jazz guitar and bass what they think of publicly calling out Charles Altura as an annoying rock guitarist? In fact I may just do that myself.

Good grief.

[kris]

Really? Think you answered this your self. If Wynton Marsalis expresses an opinion, he’s got the pedigree and runs on the board for anything he has to say to be considered, regardless of how controversial or unpopular with some it may be. Sure, no one likes everything, but the guy is playing with high level players, how about a bit of fucking respect in your critique uh? If you don’t know any better, go and ask real pro’s over at modern jazz guitar and bass what they think of publicly calling out Charles Altura as an annoying rock guitarist? In fact I may just do that myself.

You can also have a certain distance to the statements of professional musicians.
I mean the musicians' comments about musicians.
"Rock guitarst"-is it something reprehensible?

[Jazzism]

You can also have a certain distance to the statements of professional musicians.
I mean the musicians' comments about musicians.
"Rock guitarst"-is it something reprehensible?

what musicians are you talking about. Marsalis, Altura ?

[kris]

what musicians are you talking about. Marsalis, Altura ?

no....I'm talking about musicians in general.
There was probably a discussion about Pat Metheny on the forum, who spoke critically about another musician.
Similarly, J. Pastorius was quite critical about playing a famous guitarist ... etc.
Do you have to worry about it?

[Jazzism]

no....I'm talking about musicians in general.
There was probably a discussion about Pat Metheny on the forum, who spoke critically about another musician.
Similarly, J. Pastorius was quite critical about playing a famous guitarist ... etc.
Do you have to worry about it?

Metheny also said in general he refrains from publicly criticizing musicians. That was a specific case that is well documented. And for the record, I don’t worry about what Pastorius or Metheny might have said. It seems you did not comprehend what I had written previously, which you responded to anyway, so I will repeat for your benefit, they are established musicians, their opinions are valid regardless if people like them or not. faceless keyboard warriors are another matter!

[Christian Miller]

I don’t see what the problem is here. Faceless keyboard warriors are always going to be taken less seriously than Wynton etc. i see a lot of opinions on this forum and they are mostly like white noise tbh.

Some people come across as a bit close minded and snobby, but I’m not going to change that am I?

OTOH it’s ok, in fact I think desirable not to like everything. Taste and preference is part of being a creative person.

As for myself, I often feel a bit critical about other players, but increasingly I refrain from voicing it publicly because I think it’s a little man’s spirited and I don’t see the point really. I think it can be more hurtful to pros than you might think to come across negative comments too (if it can up in a web search or something) but that’s (a crappy) part of the job I suppose.

I don’t think it adds much to the world, that energy should go into focussing on stuff I do like and learning from it. But that’s my choice.

(Besides it probably reflects more on me than it does on the player I’m criticising half of the time!)

[Jazzism]

Jeez, Everyone seems so busy rushing in with their own thoughts, they’re not comprehending what’s being written. Who’s saying it’s not ok not to like everything? Think that’s been pretty well established.

[kris]

I don't know what's going on - it's the internet ...