The Barry Harris scale for ii V in Minor

[Cunamara]

Might they have thought in terms of standard diatonic harmony intially i.e. the m7b5 as a chord built on the leading note? So Em7b5 to A7b9 - which I also think of as one harmonic unit - would be F major on the basis that E is the leading note of F major. Just a thought. Probably too simple.

I think of it as D harmonic minor rather than F major, due to the C# in the A7b5, but one can play the C natural as a blue note. That works as D natural minor/F major.

[Christian Miller]

I think of it as D harmonic minor rather than F major, due to the C# in the A7b5, but one can play the C natural as a blue note. That works as D natural minor/F major.

I just think minor. You do also get the natural 9th, depending on the music.


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[rpjazzguitar]

The old Cardex fakebook which was around from the mid 40s, or so I think, did not, iirc, have m7b5 chords. Instead, there were lots of m6 chords. I would guess that the early boppers were familiar with charts like that.

What I am curious about is how it changed.

[Navdeep_Singh]

Thomas Echols has just published his third little book on how to go from somewhere to anywhere using Berry Harris device devices. Good stuff. His first book was on the harmonic aspects; his second book was on the monophonic aspects. His third book is practical application: start somewhere, go anywhere. Using, for example, the following-

H Devices


Half step rules
Pivot
Up or down in thirds
Up or down the chord
Down the scale
Arpeggio from the 5
“3”
“4”
Half steps with a triplet
Up or down the triad
Tritone
Neighbor tone
Tritone’s Minor
Borrowing (6th chord and dim)
Chromatic run
Up or down the chord with a half step
Up a 3rd with a neighbor tone
Down a triad with a half step
Pivot with a half step
Arpeggio down from the 7th
Half steps rules with 8th note triplet
Tritone’s minor in 3rds
Minor 6 from the 5 in 3rds
Down a third to the Tritone
Up a 3rd with half step rules
Up the diminished chord
Down the diminished chord

[pamosmusic]

Links to these books?

[Navdeep_Singh]

Links to these books?

volume 3

https://www.thomasechols.com/scores/p/foundations-iii-what-can-i-do-with-x-pitch

The other two can be found on the same site

[garybaldy]

Another example

Is the 2nd chord a Db maj ?

[Mick-7]

Barry Harris called the scale for ii V in minor “the minor’s five”. It is an ideal hybrid permutation. It is balanced with an extra added note. Balanced simply means that the chords tones stay on the beat. And we don't learn it up from its root, but instead, down from its 7th to the 3rd of the dominant chord of the moment.

This hybrid scale can be analyzed as the 5th mode of Harmonic Minor with a very important added extra note. But conceiving of it and implementing it as the 5th mode of Harmonic Minor played down from its 6th degree with the added note is too awkward, in my opinion.

Nevertheless, it's just the I min. harmonic minor scale over the IIm7(b5)/ V7(b9) chords, e.g., A hm over Bm7(b5)/ E7(b9), my ears will tell me it's best application.

You don't say what the "very important note" that's added is?

[pamosmusic]

Nevertheless, it's just the I min. harmonic minor scale over the IIm7(b5)/ V7(b9) chords, e.g., A hm over Bm7(b5)/ E7(b9), my ears will tell me it's best application.

You don't say what the "very important note" that's added is?

b3

[Mick-7]

b3

a.k.a., the #9th of the V7 chord? That is, add the b7th to the harmonic minor scale? [A hm: A-B-C-D-E-F-(G)-G#].

[pamosmusic]

a.k.a., the #9th of the V7 chord? That is, add the b7th to the harmonic minor scale? [A hm: A-B-C-D-E-F-(G)-G#].

#9 is what the nerds call it

and I know you’re not a nerd because you called it G and not F double sharp

[Christian Miller]

Delete

[Christian Miller]

Ok so Barry said this in the last session I attended of his.

Don’t get stuck into the harmonic minor. So when you play on Dm7b5 G7 Cm focus on the Bb7. Don’t feel you have to play the B.

So based on that I would say is that the scale is the Bb7 scale with an optional added note that is the leading tone of the key. We use the dim 7 a lot to connect it when getting started but that’s not necessary.


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[Mick-7]

Ok so Barry said this in the last session I attended of his.

Don’t get stuck into the harmonic minor. So when you play on Dm7b5 G7 Cm focus on the Bb7. Don’t feel you have to play the B.

So based on that I would say is that the scale is the Bb7 scale with an optional added note that is the leading tone of the key. We use the dim 7 a lot to connect it when getting started but that’s not necessary.

It would not occur to me to look at that progression (Dm7b5/G7/Cm) and think Bb7 - D locrian/Eb major, sure (same thing). There is the diminished connection you mentioned but still....

[pamosmusic]

It would not occur to me to look at that progression (Dm7b5/G7/Cm) and think Bb7 - D locrian/Eb major, sure (same thing). There is the diminished connection you mentioned but still....

It would, presumably, occur to most people to see a Bb7 and think Dm7b5. So it’s just the reverse of that.

As for the G7-Bb7 connection … Diminished substitution. You were already commenting above on the similarities between that Bb7 scale over G and the C harmonic minor over G. Like Christian said, the B is the only difference. Cool when you play it, but not necessary to get a good sound.

[Christian Miller]

Again with Barry it comes back to the dominant scale. If you have a million cool things to play in the dominant scale you don’t want to spend too much messing with the harmonic minor.

OTOH the harmonic minor is a cool sound and Bird used it a lot.

(For people coming from outside the Barry thing it’s worth repeating Barry was mostly if not entirely interested in the styles of Bird and Bud.)

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[djg]

#9 is what the nerds call it

i was taught to call it a b10.

[PMB]

Maybe I'm missing something here but is anyone noticing that the harmonic minor with an added b7 is identical in terms of pitch content to its relative major sixth diminished scale?

BH considered the major sixth diminished primarily as a harmonic rather than melodic generator but he was no doubt aware that it exclusively contains notes from a major scale and its relative harmonic minor. Thinking of the scale from that point of view may help to simplify thought processes when approaching minor ii-V-Is.

[CliffR]

Ok so Barry said this in the last session I attended of his.

Don’t get stuck into the harmonic minor. So when you play on Dm7b5 G7 Cm focus on the Bb7. Don’t feel you have to play the B.

So based on that I would say is that the scale is the Bb7 scale with an optional added note that is the leading tone of the key. We use the dim 7 a lot to connect it when getting started but that’s not necessary.


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Does this still apply if the Cm has an explicit natural 6 in the lead sheet? (I'm thinking Blue Bossa). The Bb7 dominant scale contains the C\s b6th, so would I just raise that when moving to the Cm6?

[pamosmusic]

Does this still apply if the Cm has an explicit natural 6 in the lead sheet? (I'm thinking Blue Bossa). The Bb7 dominant scale contains the C\s b6th, so would I just raise that when moving to the Cm6?

Yeah. Minor is weird and fluid and cool.

You would still usually have iim7b5 V7b9 to i6 … so that Ab to A move is super cool.

That Cm6 dim scale has both for that harmonic reason. But single notes the Bb7 going to Cm6 is wicked

(melody to Paranoid Android, anyone?)

[Mick-7]

Maybe I'm missing something here but is anyone noticing that the harmonic minor with an added b7 is identical in terms of pitch content to its relative major sixth diminished scale?

BH considered the major sixth diminished primarily as a harmonic rather than melodic generator but he was no doubt aware that it exclusively contains notes from a major scale and its relative harmonic minor. Thinking of the scale from that point of view may help to simplify thought processes when approaching minor ii-V-Is.

Yes, just adding a note to the major scale can give you all of these major/minor dominant scales. Take melodic minor, the common "altered" scale over a V7 chord is the melodic minor scale a half step higher, e.g., Abmm over G7, but you could just add the b3rd to the Ab Major scale: Ab-Bb-(B)-C-Db-Eb-F-G. And Dmm, the tritone "lydian dominant" mm scale, with major 3rd added would be: D-E-F-(F#)G-A-B-C#.