CST and making it harder to sound like - e.g. - Hank Mobley

[T Monk]

[kris]

Hi, L,
It's really not about age, Lobo . . . it's about talents. How about a couple videos of your favorite young musicians who represent your idea of musical genius at a young age as was the case with Miles, Chet, Coltrane, Dexter, Blue, Monk, Herbie, Chet, Bird, Dizzy, Clifford, Lester, Mingus, Monk, Lee, Roy, Hank, Joe, Elvin . . whew . . I'm getting tired . . . should I keep going???? Who are these young master artists you keep talking about in generalities. C'mon, Lobo . . . I know you can do it! How 'bout a few names and tell me who you would compare them to of the greats in the past. This is, of course, a music forum.
Marinero

These older artists recorded a lot of albums and practically made jazz, and young talents learn from them.

[kris]

It's fine Marinero

Over the years I've come to appreciate you shitting on any musical piece published after 1969 ... I especially cherish your work in the "What are you listening to now" thread, don't ever stop telling people that what they love is absolutely terrible.


And don't worry .. I'll be out of your hair for good

When I was at a jazz workshop led by Mike Stern, someone asked him about new young guitarists.
Somehow he didn't want to answer or he wouldn't be interested in it.
He also added that he is constantly learning from jazz giants... like McCoy Tyner or other brilliant old pianists.
Mike is a very cool, honest musician.

[kris]

For Marinero...this album is from 1994...:-)

[grahambop]

I like this guitarist from Italy, Riccardo Chiarion. His tunes have quite a modern vibe but are very melodic. I bought his ‘Quiet Stories’ album and it’s great.

The concert here starts at about 1:30.

[kris]

Oh ... There is a difference between not being passionate about the music of the young and hating on them. We are a product of our times ... Our tastes are shaped from our childhood .. especially in our teens and once you reach your 20s it tends to calcify.


I don't listen to all that many younger players myself either .. I'm just a wee bit younger that Marinero, so already my favorite players growing up Metheny, Sco and McLaughlin fall into the category of player that Marinero has been shitting on. There was a post a while back, where he called out those three for diluting and ultimately ruining jazz with their rock influences. He is not a fan unsurprisingly


Tho I was totally smitten by Julian Lage once he switched from archtop to telecaster on his Archlight album ... Great great album .. 2016 I think .. I had that thing on constantly thru out that year.


I get that people are into stuff from their youth and thus burn for the music of that time. Also Stern (and you for that matter too) has his audience. If he showed up playing a more modern style his audience wouldn't care for it, so there is that too.

I get Stern not listening to younger players, I get you not doing it either .. You've already carved your way .. But I don't remember any posts from you hating on anyone?


I mean .. McCoy Tyner is cool .. But that doesn't mean that someone like Brad Mehldau sucks and you can't go to him for inspiration ... It's a vastly different feel and expression off course, but is it bad?

Scofield with Melhdau on "Works for me" from 2001 is a great album btw in my humble opinion.

+1
You know, for some people, jazz ended with Coltrane's death.

[grahambop]

+1
You know, for some people, jazz ended with Coltrane's death.

There are some people who thought it ended with his birth!

[Litterick]

Some are waiting for his resurrection.

[kris]

Oh crap - I've been working out for hours lately with Giant Steps ...

[Marinero]

It's fine Marinero

Over the years I've come to appreciate you shitting on any musical piece published after 1969 ... I especially cherish your work in the "What are you listening to now" thread, don't ever stop telling people that what they love is absolutely terrible.


And don't worry .. I'll be out of your hair for good

Hi, Lobo,
You keep dodging the question: give us some names as I have asked ,now, and repeatedly in the past. If you don't have evidence of your brilliant young artist(s) claim that is/are on par with the names I mentioned , you don't have a case. Your honor, I rest my case.
Marinero

[kris]

[Marinero]

Hi, L,
Scofield(b.'51), McLaughlin(b. '42), Metheny(b."54) and Krantz(b."56) are not young players. So, you got that wrong. However, Lage, Lund, Rozenwinkel, and Van Ruler do qualify based on age. So, for the record, the last four qualify as equals in talent to my previous list of musicians?
Marinero

[grahambop]

Jesse van Ruller is world-class.

[grahambop]

End of a Love Affair, re-energised.

[Marinero]

For Marinero...this album is from 1994...:-)

Hi, Kris,
Thanks for the great music this morning! Eddie was definitely influenced by Miles' playing in his tone and phrasing but certainly has his own voice. This was a great album. Five Stars!
Marinero

[jameslovestal]

Hi, L,
Scofield(b.'51), McLaughlin(b. '42), Metheny(b."54) and Krantz(b."56) are not young players. So, you got that wrong. However, Lage, Lund, Rozenwinkel, and Van Ruler do qualify based on age. So, for the record, the last four qualify as equals in talent to my previous list of musicians?
Marinero

Agreed they are NOT young now, but back when they were part of that younger-generation of musicians in the 70s and 80s, do you view them as being like their peers (so called true artist) when those cats were younger or just another generation of mostly young hacks? (like you view the current younger-generation).

PS: This is not a got-ya post: I'm truly interested if overtime you changed your POV as it relates to Scofield, Metheny, etc.. or still believe that when those guys were young they were "hacks" but that now they have matured into artist.

[grahambop]

I haven't really got into Kurt all that much, but I like his big-band album.

[Marinero]

We are all prisoners of our generation and I know my own generation better than the current ... But point is .you've previously on this forum critized McLaughling, Scofield, Metheny for diluting and ultimately destroying jazz, which is why I mentioned them

I actually thought Wayne was younger as I became aware of him in the last 20 years, but I'm sure you don't like him either .. no big deal .. the rest .. yeah .. You already said enough about them to show your disdain.

But ok ... Let's get specific, so you can't just say general things


Let's start with Julian Lage



In my view he is is every bit as brilliant as any jazz guitarist before him. Started at a very young age. Studied with some of the finest musicians as a kid .. Been on the road since in his early teens, Did the Berklee thing. Been in Gary Burtons band for ages too .. and is now is in his prime as a solo artist.


What exactly is wrong with him or his playing?

Hi, L,
The perception of Music is both visceral and intellectual. However, initially, when we listen to a musician/music, we do not use our intellect, but rather our senses which usually ends with "I like it . . . I don't like it." It is also that way with Literature, Poetry, and the visual Arts. It is only later, after further exposure, that we look deeper into the music/Art to understand why we have reacted positively to a song, poem, or painting. Secondly, the vessel in which the Art is received is also of equal importance. Does a rare Chateau Margaux Bordeaux first decanted, then sipped from fine Swarovski Crystal have the same perceived taste and impression as when drunk directly poured from the bottle in grandma's wooden mixing bowl? So, when I answer this question, it is based on my life experiences and education. . . not a prevailing mood or general perception of others. In 1965, when Ben Webster recorded "Stardust" playing the entire tune in "subtones," could any reasonably sensitive person not be moved by the music and its(perceived) memorable lyrics? We don't need to know what modes were matching what chords but simply sit back and listen to a sensitive human being communicate his feeling/Art through his music. You either like it . . . or you don't.
So, here's two songs, a general audience would perceive as a ballad: "Stardust" by Ben Webster and "I'll Be Seeing You" by Julian Lage. When I respond viscerally, I like the first(Webster) and dislike the second(Lage). When I respond intellectually, I appreciate Lage's technical skills but after listening to this piece, I'd never return to his music since it does nothing for me. Period. It doesn't mean that others don't love his music . . . for me, it leaves me cold. I hope this answers you question.
Marinero

Here's Ben:

Here's Julain:

[kris]

Two different instruments. Both musicians play beautifully.

[Marinero]

Agreed they are NOT young now, but back when they were part of that younger-generation of musicians in the 70s and 80s, do you view them as being like their peers (so called true artist) when those cats were younger or just another generation of mostly young hacks? (like you view the current younger-generation).

PS: This is not a got-ya post: I'm truly interested if overtime you changed your POV as it relates to Scofield, Metheny, etc.. or still believe that when those guys were young they were "hacks" but that now they have matured into artist.

Hi, J,
Of the previously mentioned, Metheny is probably the easiest to listen to, for me, but he is not on my music rotation for daily listening. The rest are a definite "no." I think they are Rock-based "Jazz" musicians ,as many in their generation, and it is this influence that I dislike so passionately. However, one could not say they were not serious but rather pursued "Jazz" through their own vision which does not coincide with mine. Hacks? No. However, I have not changed my opinion concerning their music(see my previous post to Lobo). Secondly, all musicians have their roots. I'm a city boy(Chicago) and mine were in R@R/R@B/Soul/Funk so the music I love best is grounded in those traditions. I grew up listening to great local Jazz musicians playing in funky bars and clubs that reflected the sounds and landscapes of urban America like Von Freeman, Johnny Griffin, Gene Ammons, Fred Anderson, Willie Pickens, Joe Daly, Phil Upchurch, etc. However, I continue to stay open to new players whose music I respect like Jocelyn Gould but the list is short.
Marinero

[kris]

Maybe the problem is that the young musicians play too perfectly...and...?
And in this way some kind of artistic expression disappears ... spirituality ... I don't know.

[Christian Miller]

I really like Arclight. I found it quite a break with many other contemporary jazz guitar records of the time.

I saw the trio live twice, once touring for this record. Absolutely killed it. Go see him, he’s a great live performer, masterful user of dynamics.

[Christian Miller]

Maybe the problem is that the young musicians play too perfectly...and...?
And in this way some kind of artistic expression disappears ... spirituality ... I don't know.

Its hard to imagine Barney or Grant playing in the same way today; and I’d take swing over perfection any day, but they were products of their era.

I think guitar audiences being nerdy about guitar haven’t really helped. The technical bar has been raised via expectation. Still, Julian Lage I think has some cross over appeal, maybe Lage Lund not so much.

That said, Ben Monder’s music is consistently interesting and not at all standard modern jazz guitar fare. He’s a virtuoso player, but his music is the main attraction for me, he plays the guitar without ego. It’s mostly not ‘jazzy jazz’ but I don’t care

[jameslovestal]

Maybe the problem is that the young musicians play too perfectly...and...?
And in this way some kind of artistic expression disappears ... spirituality ... I don't know.

I think you're on to something. I remember hearing Kessell for the first time after listening to Joe Pass for years.

I was so clueless Kessell sounded sloppy. But as I matured in my appreciation of MUSIC and that there was more to making MUSIC then just being technical, I grew to love what Kessell was doing. It had more passion and energy, and risk-taking, and while I still love Pass, I tend to list to Kessell more than Pass.

[Christian Miller]

I'm not so sure that audiences are to blame ... it's just how the times are currently ... I suspect it is the arrival of computers. Suddenly you can analyze everything in extreme detail and human nature will strive to make it perfect ... You see it in all fields


The big question is this:
Players like Lage Lund or Julian Lage .. If you ask them to a Bernie K or Grant G impression .. You think they can nail it?i

The bigger question is - does it matter?

Quite honestly while I’m pretty sure they know all of that language and vocabulary, I’m not sure either of them can swing the way those guys did because the way those guys felt time was a function of their playing for dancers, a LOT. Like night after night playing swing jazz or R&B in dancehalls when they were coming up. Human time with other musicians and the demands of the dancers.

Jazz musicians today play for a seated audience. Their conception of time is based around the metronome.

Grant Green is not on any metronome grid anyone has ever heard of but grooves like crazy. Lage Lund is like a Swiss watch.

so yeah it’s different. Both players have great time, in any case and can do things that you wouldn’t be able to do in that earlier environment. I don’t need them to be the same. It’s more classical now I suppose.

Do they play like they play thru necessity ... They can't play differently?

Or do they do it as an artistic choice?

I think their note choices are an artistic choice. But note choices are not the only thing that makes a player.

If it's the former then Marinero has quite the point .. If it's the latter then all is good, isn't it?

music changes. It’s important to appreciate things for what they are not what they are not; or you end up one of the people hating on Coltrane for not being Charlie Parker or something.