I'm going down with the ship

**Clint 55** · 10-11-2021, 10:17 AM

It is absolutely not possible to go and play fluently in G# minor on piano if you've never spent time in it, regardless of how good your ear is. That's the purpose of technique exercises, to internalize fundamental aspects of playing, and eliminate them as obstacles so your ear can take over.

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 10-11-2021, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

I'm convinced that players who know a zillion tunes actually memorize the tune the same way any non-musician does. They can hum the melody, or sing the words. They'll even know the harmony -- they must, because they can tell a wrong chord from the right one.

What the musician then brings is the ability to hear the tune in his mind, same as anybody else, and then find the notes he needs on the instrument. He does that by sound and, when he's got it going, it will feel like his fingers go to the right place without being told. Or her.

In 60+ active years as a sideman backing vocalists, playing in house bands for jams and touring artists, etc, I know a fair number of tunes and can play pretty much anything in any key on guitar, bass, keys, vibes, trumpet and saxes. I learned early on that interval training was the secret for me - hearing the next interval change(s) in my head a bar or two before getting there has been the key to relatively clam free performance.

I’m fortunate in having close to perfect pitch - I can tune my guitar to within a few cents of A440 by ear. But a complex or unorthodox harmonic structure still obscures an occasional root interval in a new tune I’m sight reading or when playing a tune I haven’t heard or played in a long time. So I still practice interval training and strongly suggest it to others. Learning each key’s intervals on the fretboard can be a visual exercise, even if you can’t hear it a priori. A major third is 4 frets, so you can see that the 3 in F# is an A#. Once you can hear a melody and accompanying changes as a series of intervals related to the tonic, and you’ve learned the basic scales in all 12 keys, it’s much easier to transpose on the fly. There are several decent online exercises you can do - just search for interval recognition training exercises.

**Christian Miller** · 10-11-2021, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

The issue about how to play tunes in any key without trying to memorize formulae is an important one.

As I've posted before, I'm convinced that players who know a zillion tunes actually memorize the tune the same way any non-musician does. They can hum the melody, or sing the words. They'll even know the harmony -- they must, because they can tell a wrong chord from the right one.

What the musician then brings is the ability to hear the tune in his mind, same as anybody else, and then find the notes he needs on the instrument. He does that by sound and, when he's got it going, it will feel like his fingers go to the right place without being told. Or her.

So, the question is, how do you develop that? I'm no expert but I've noticed this. If the chord is, say, F#m7b5 and there is a C in the melody, my hand will go to xx7978 automatically. For some reason, that relationship between chord and melody is very obvious to my ear. I can do it with a b7 in a 7 chord and many others, but not as many as I'd like. I think that it may come with practice, which, as laborious as it can be, I do with Irealpro in every key, moving by 4ths, not half steps.

Reg, is this the sort of thing you were referring to?

Well imo you can do a lot worse than just playing tunes in block chords. Do enough and you’ll cover the main possibilities.

**Reg** · 10-11-2021, 06:54 PM

Yes... sort of Rick. That where I was going to go with Clint. Personally it's a technical issue on ones instrument. And as nevershouldhavesoldit...NSHSI was going ...interval awareness and for me because of composition and arranging... relationships of notes to chords.... Blue Monk, 3rd to 5th etc... and with Roman Numerals ... (jazz usage).

Which becomes...Once one learns a tune which should require an analysis ... any key becomes just a Starting reference. Anytime I play a new tune I generally do a quick analysis of chart, as long as one has the time... a minute or less for most.

Of course... you also need your technical skills on your instrument etc...

I may be totally wrong... but I believe Clint was using learning tunes in all keys as a process for getting his technical skills on his instrument together.

**Clint 55** · 10-11-2021, 08:29 PM

Technical skills are fine. Real book tunes aren't in A,B,D,E, or Gb. On guitar you can just move over a fret, while on piano you have to have a whole new set of fingerings understood.

**rpjazzguitar** · 10-11-2021, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Clint 55

That should be a g natural at the end, sorry.

Attachment 85174

Thanks for posting this. I'd never thought about that sort of thing as a key change. To me, it was just a harmony. But, it's a good idea to be aware of both.

**Clint 55** · 10-12-2021, 12:31 AM

No prob. Why wouldn't you think of changing the 1 to which it resolves, rearranging the melody to fit the new scale, and using different chords to make suitable changes for the new tonality as a key change?

**rpjazzguitar** · 10-12-2021, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by Clint 55

That should be a g natural at the end, sorry.

Attachment 85174

Originally Posted by Clint 55

No prob. Why wouldn't you think of changing the 1 to which it resolves, rearranging the melody to fit the new scale, and using different chords to make suitable changes for the new tonality as a key change?

If this is a straightforward question ... I guess the answer is I don't hear it my mind that way. There's a melodic line and I hear a line that may harmonize it (or may go against it, or complement it in some other fashion). I don't think of it as rearranging the melody and I don't typically change the chords by virtue of thinking that way. When I do change the chords, I'm not thinking about key or scale. I'm thinking about the sound I want to make. When I harmonize melody, I think about the sounds of the notes. I never think about it in terms of what scale I might be harmonizing with.

It may have to do with goals. I'm not trying to solo like a well rounded jazz musician, or whatever the usual goal is. I'm not trying to play based on patterns. What I'm trying to do is scat sing in my head and play that. If I'm thinking about a scale or pattern it's because I'm failing at that moment.

**Clint 55** · 10-12-2021, 02:39 AM

That could be your response if the song was in 2 different major keys. The melody is literally changed to be in minor..

**rpjazzguitar** · 10-12-2021, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Clint 55

That could be your response if the song was in 2 different major keys. The melody is literally changed to be in minor..

So, the idea is that you're going to take C D E F G A B and substitute A for C, B for D, C for E, etc? Or, stated another way, you're going to harmonize with diatonic 6ths?

Or, maybe you're going to flat all the thirds of Cmaj and make it Cm?

**Clint 55** · 10-12-2021, 03:37 PM

Well I wasn't trying to get all theoretical about it, that's just what I was taught in school. Major and its relative minor use the same key signature but they're different keys.

In this case with Blue Monk, I wanted to play a minor key on the same day that I work a major key. I could have done the parallel minor but I decided to do the relative minor since you more often see it in the same song like autumn leaves or my funny valentine. But I didn't feel like using autumn leaves as my all keys tune since it annoys me. Plus I was changing the melody to fit minor.

If you're asking what I did in this particular instance to make Blue Monk minor, I can go over it.

**Clint 55** · 10-14-2021, 10:10 PM

Lil demo of the practice sessions and what Blue Monk sounds like in minor. Today is F/D- day so this is Blue Monk in D minor.

**Spirit59** · 10-15-2021, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by Clint 55

Lil demo of the practice sessions and what Blue Monk sounds like in minor. Today is F/D- day so this is Blue Monk in D minor.

Re-harming Monk! Cool!

No monks were harmed in this excercise

**Clint 55** · 10-15-2021, 02:06 AM

**rintincop** · 10-15-2021, 12:51 PM

I'd like to hear it as D-6 : D E F G A Bb B C#. I'm not a fan of F/D- sound you are aiming for.

**Clint 55** · 10-15-2021, 01:26 PM

F/D- meaning I play songs in F major and songs in D minor. Today is Gb major and Eb minor day.

I have different approaches to play in minor. I use the minor major sound (D-6, D-maj7), but I don't use it exclusively as standard for tonics because I'm not always in the mood for it to be spooky. I like to also utilize the dorian sound or triadic minor sound.

**Clint 55** · 11-09-2021, 10:59 PM

I've been through all the keys twice and am diggin the program. I'm going to keep playing this way. It makes it so you don't hate uncommon keys anymore and are fluent in everything. I'm including more of my rep in the different key every day or 2 practice such as Autumn Leaves, Misty, Solar, and Four. Here's Blue Monk in B. Per wzpgsr and TOMMO in the Four thread, I'm going to work on keeping the rhythms and time good throughout, and then changing sounds and doing a climax part. Gonna have that be my template for my recordings until I can master it.