Does Berklee have a codified jazz theory?

**Christian Miller** · 09-25-2021, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by joelf

I guess they do---and so what?

No one needs $5 words and 'systems' to play; compose; sing---whatever. Instead ask someone who knows more than you; digest; become an autodidact lifelong learner; trust your ears and heart.

It's CHEAPER too!...

Thats why it became necessary to invent forms of jazz that DO require $5 words and systems to play… and make sure this became established as the future sound of jazz…

Meanwhile some kids in SE London start selling Afrobeat inspired groove jazz to a wide audience (including American) and all the those jazzers get VERY snotty about it… oh man, the salt…

**jaco** · 09-25-2021, 09:23 AM

I guess first we should define what is a system of theory? For me it was taking what worked for me and applying it to my particular style. When I was at Berklee you used the Levett Books in the beginning (personally I think they're good) but then you were free to follow your own path. I had plenty of friends who studied with Mick Goodrick and Charlie Banakas privately. I chose classical guitar because it wasn't offered at NEC at the time. Ironically the present chair of the guitar department is a classical guitarist. (sorry for the spelling Charlie and all, it's been awhile rip).
As an addendum, I was a starving kid with little funds but determined. After the first two semesters I was given scholarship money. I Thank Berklee for that every day.

**Donplaysguitar** · 09-25-2021, 10:14 AM

This is a bit silly.

Traditionally (and still):

Music majors take four semesters of theory and harmony, as freshman and sophomores.
3 credit hours, M-W-F
Weekly part writing exercises for harmony, PLUS - ear training, sight singing, rhythmic training (hand clapping and vocal expression "dugga-dugga-dugga")
There is a freshman harmony/theory texbook and there is a sophomore textbook. The good ones last for decades. The sight singing and rhythm books are separate.

Jazz studies programs - UNT for example - add an additional two semesters of jazz harmony for jazz studies majors. They use Dan Haerle's book - "The Jazz Language". Other schools copied/copy this model. So, that covers that.

Berklee? Well, it's not a "traditional/classical" school so they are left with writing their own texts (like Dan Haerle did).

Former Berklee teacher Barry Nettles authored four semesters. The sheets are scanned and findable on the internet. (Great stuff, but no longer used at Berklee).

There is a post above mentioning a harmony book from Berklee press, for jazz. It's good. You can also look at Berklee Online if you want to see what they teach these days - and - take the classes, like I did. It's not identical to the on campus classes, but it's close enough.

ANY subject has to use consistent theories, conceptual models, and terminology. The alternative is like the Tower of Babel. (that would be a bad thing)

**Christian Miller** · 09-25-2021, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Lobomov

There was a time, where music also was about the audience and making their lives happier

You just don’t get it do you? :-)

**Christian Miller** · 09-25-2021, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by jaco

I guess first we should define what is a system of theory? For me it was taking what worked for me and applying it to my particular style. When I was at Berklee you used the Levett Books in the beginning (personally I think they're good) but then you were free to follow your own path. I had plenty of friends who studied with Mick Goodrick and Charlie Banakas privately. I chose classical guitar because it wasn't offered at NEC at the time. Ironically the present chair of the guitar department is a classical guitarist. (sorry for the spelling Charlie and all, it's been awhile rip).
As an addendum, I was a starving kid with little funds but determined. After the first two semesters I was given scholarship money. I Thank Berklee for that every day.

the Leavitt thing is interesting. Seems to be a big deal stateside. I think there are some (probably Berklee trained) teachers in circulation where I am, and occasionally I inherit a (child) student and take them to the end of the book, and then move onto my normal type of material.

At some point when I have the time and inclination, I should take a closer look and see what I want to adopt in my own practice.

My impression always one of - extremely well organised and thought through but dry as a bone. I also worry that prolonged exposure to Leavitt exercises might actually do harm to one’s aesthetic sensibility (I’m sort of joking?) Students should read great or at least REAL music as much as possible…. Music isn’t just about acquiring skills after all, but learning an aesthetic awareness and emotional connection. Leavitt, bless him, really isn’t a composer. (OTOH finding graded reading material for plectrum guitar is a pain in the bottom?)

there’s not much out there that’s systematic for plectrum guitar, so nothing like it, if you need someone to knuckle down and get the instrument learned; but very much almost a STEM textbook approach.

It seems to me that in general the American music education sector really likes systems. There always seems to be a system for this or that. In the UK we are much less like that for some reason. I can see strengths and weaknesses to both ways of doing things.

**jaco** · 09-25-2021, 10:59 AM

I agree with Christian's post above. If some one took some simple Bach (or whatever) pieces and graded them gradually the joy of reading music would be a good thing. Reading music should be a discovery of great music not the drudgery of reading bad literature.

**Christian Miller** · 09-25-2021, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by jaco

I agree with Christian's post above. If some one took some simple Bach (or whatever) pieces and graded them gradually the joy of reading music would be a good thing. Reading music should be a discovery of great music not the drudgery of reading bad literature.

Yeah! It’s not like any learning activity teaches just one thing. You might be working on reading or transcribing, but you are so learning about music itself. It’s easy to get tempted into being to reductionist… but ultimately music doesn’t benefit from too much systemisation - there’s a balance to be found.

I really like the Adam Levy reading book for jazz; it is good music, and you could take the examples and also use them as ideas for improv, lessons in theory, all sorts (could do that with Bach too, of course.) AL is a real musician obviously.

**Reg** · 09-25-2021, 11:08 AM

Yea the codification aspect would depend on one's major...but if one is motivated...

You take the Degree certification requirement classes at one of your local colleges during your summer, which will let one have more time to take advantage of the music related classes offered. And take as many extra classes as you can handle... you'll miss the boat if you don't. And you need to already have your playing and understanding of music already somewhat together before you start... go to a junior college for a few years before you enroll, this will also help with getting funds while there.

here is some info from Berklee... (like what donplaysguitar posted, but directly from Berklee)

The harmony core, in combination with arranging, ear training, conducting, tonal harmony and counterpoint, and music technology courses, will provide you with a broad-based musical vocabulary, important skills for your major studies, and a well-rounded musical background. Every entering student is placed into harmony courses based on the proficiencies, skills, and knowledge demonstrated on the harmony section of the Entering Student Proficiency Assessment.

Develop literacy in the fundamentals of contemporary music theory (note identification, intervals, chord spelling to the 13th, scale construction including (diatonic scales, modes, non-diatonic scales);
Recognize the basic chord progressions of contemporary popular music (major diatonic with chromatic embellishments, minor diatonic with chromatic embellishments, modal with chromatic embellishments) in written form;
Analyze the chord progressions of popular songs in a variety of styles by employing Roman numeral and graphical analysis;
Express harmonic functions as chord scales and notate them correctly;
Reduce a written musical arrangement to a lead sheet using standard chord symbols;
Realize harmony represented by standard chord symbols in written form through a variety of voice leading techniques (i.e. 4-way close, guide tone lines, spread voicings, hybrids, etc.);
Analyze the harmonic implications of a given melody;
Harmonize a given melody in a variety of popular styles; and
Compose an original melody and accompanying chord progressions in a variety of popular styles.

transcribe increasingly advanced songs from various contemporary music styles;
analyze the underlying theoretical structures of various contemporary music styles;
synthesize advanced music theory and apply it to their own musicianship;
apply their enhanced theoretical knowledge as they develop an individual voice and enhanced creativity in both composition and performance; and
prepare for graduate work in the fields of ethnomusicology, jazz studies, music theory, or jazz composition.

The Professional Writing and Music Technology Division is comprised of the following departments:

When your done... you'll have a very workable understanding of what is implied by jazz theory codification. And easily be able to apply those concepts to your playing, arranging, composing etc...

While I went to Berklee I sat in on gigs with faculty. Transcribed and made charts and arrangements, as well as the parts for the ensemble office. Basically had no life... besides music.

**Reg** · 09-25-2021, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

Yeah! It’s not like any learning activity teaches just one thing. You might be working on reading or transcribing, but you are so learning about music itself. It’s easy to get tempted into being to reductionist… but ultimately music doesn’t benefit from too much systemisation - there’s a balance to be found.

I really like the Adam Levy reading book for jazz; it is good music, and you could take the examples and also use them as ideas for improv, lessons in theory, all sorts (could do that with Bach too, of course.) AL is a real musician obviously.

The Systemination... I like that, is generally just starting or creating "references from where to start", generally the reasoning is, it's much faster approach to get to goals. Of course that is if they are there.

It's easy to decide what works once you get there. Where else do all the one liners come from, especially from the trial and error approach.... just play the music and it will happen. yea right.

**Christian Miller** · 09-25-2021, 11:26 AM

It’s always better IMO to have a system (or a plan of any kind). It’s also important not to be dogmatic and inflexible about it; don’t mistake the syllabus for the teaching. Kind of like a gig….

And don’t imagine that you only teach students the things you intend to ;-)

Anyway somewhat off topic.

**Donplaysguitar** · 09-25-2021, 11:51 AM

Leavitt books are for instrumental study, not theory for heaven’s sake. Same goes for piano or whatever books.

the OP inquired about theory.

in music school they refer to instrumental studies as “applied music”. Applied to the guitar, in the case of Leavitt.

**Donplaysguitar** · 09-25-2021, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by rintincop

I wonder does Berklee School of Music really have a codified system of jazz theory and terminology that their teachers adhere to? In other words, are their teachers told to teach a specific Berklee jazz theory system?
I thought not, but maybe they do. I know they publish course books.

And, how influential on jazz is the Berklee School? Does it really substantially effect the course of the jazz world? I thought they were simply a prestigious music college, a training camp, a place to make contacts and be recognized.

the answer to your first question should not be very different from any other college course of study, especially when dealing with fundamentals. Fundamentals are covered in the first 1-2 years of undergrad school. Those are the two years in which music majors study theory/harmony.

**ccroft** · 09-25-2021, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by jaco

....Metheny was teaching at Berklee while I was there. The Jazz Workshop shows with Bill Evans, McCoy,Tony Williams, Gary Burton with Pat and Mick, Oregon. Keith Jarrett at Symphony Hall. Wednesday night $1.00 admission with student ID for rehearsal with the Boston Symphony Orchestra. Imagine Ozawa rehearsing "the Rite of Spring" for a buck. The Boston Museum, Gardner Museum, Fogg Museum at Harvard. Classmates Mike Stern, Jamie Glaser, Bill Frisell, Vinnie Coliuta...It was a magical time...I cherish it

Now that's an education! And the classes don't hurt either :-)

**Christian Miller** · 09-25-2021, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by ccroft

Now that's an education! And the classes don't hurt either :-)

Sounds like jaco was there in the heyday…

**sm80808** · 12-14-2021, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note

There was another teacher there who taught things NOT in the curriculum or available in any classrooms there. . .

Sorry if this is an obvious question.

Which teacher was this?

**Jimmy blue note** · 12-14-2021, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by sm80808

Sorry if this is an obvious question.

Which teacher was this?

It was the man who created the curriculum and proficiency level system to begin with, Mick Goodrick.
Mick helped codify the presentation of what was perceived to be the most elegant body of guitar knowledge at the time, and incorporated into the 8 level proficiency system used by Berklee to date. He did this decades ago, and he continued to grow, to expand the harmonic body of knowledge well beyond the given proficiency system.
His evolutionary system went beyond the system he laid down and he never imagined it would become the static metric it is known for today. After he put that tiered system down, he went on to formulate a system of harmonic study that transcended tertiary harmony and became a guideline for harmonies like triads over bass notes, clusters and harmonies in fourths, all of which could be taken individually, expanded upon, extracted in their pure form and voice led, unfolding shades of harmonies which he hoped would reset the baseline of possibility and usher in the next generation of players.
Berklee never embraced the expanded harmonic concepts of Mick so he taught them privately to those students who sought him out while he was teaching there. Listen to Lage Lund, and the things he teaches about exploring expanded harmony: that's a direct lineage from the time he spent with Mick. Listen to Julian Lage's modal counterpoint and figures of voice led figures that are NOT triad based. That's Berklee education via Mick Goodrick. Listen to Ben Monder weaving impossible harmonies beneath a melodic line with harmonic structure that's closer to Bach than Bebop. That's the lineage that Mick passed on to him. Bill Frisell and John Scofield also credit him with imparting seminal knowledge that allowed them to create the sounds we know them for. Same for Mike Stern and ...others.

Now that Mick is gone from Berklee, there are not a lot of teachers there who actually get what he was doing (excepting Tim Miller) so that's one of the greatest lost opportunities IMHO, but again, there's plenty to learn, that was only one branch of a huge tree.
A lot of people don't consider anything beyond immediate post bop relevant. Mick was just there for those who asked for a doorway beyond that.

**Christian Miller** · 12-15-2021, 12:31 PM

@jimmybluenote

Do you think that stratification/ossification is inevitable to institutions of this kind?

Asking for a friend haha.

**Jimmy blue note** · 12-15-2021, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

@jimmybluenote

Do you think that stratification/ossification is inevitable to institutions of this kind?

Asking for a friend haha.

It is when an institution of education becomes an institution of profit. It takes a president who can make a case for the needs and unrealized potential of a student weighed against the board of trustees who's idea of success is a solid survivability and the means to acquire larger amounts of real estate. No, that doesn't bode well for visionary or innovative curriculae. Sure Harvard has some of the most progressive and ground breaking programs but they hire from the most carefully vetted and their endowment is second only to the Vatican when it comes to non-profits. MIT doesn't shy away from new ideas but they are heavily funded by the military to support think tanks whose purpose is to look at things differently.
Berklee and many music/art schools walk a different tight rope. Their only metric for success is the entertainment business's award winners being associated with a celebrity "brand".
Berklee has an ear training department that competes with the harmony department on educational goals when the two should be an integrative process (Harmony with no in class ear training component? Ear training without the enforcement of theoretical rationale when assimilating integral ideas of technique and ideation? In the big bands that formed the template for the musical canon of jazz, they were one in the same.) But why would Berklee have two hands that are not connected to one another? Faculty unions, jobs and the filling of core curriculum requirements that force each student to take 2 years of core classes when it could be done in half the time in an integrated model. $$$$$ paid by the student to a larger faculty.

Learning an art is a non linear and messy process, but a devoted student can learn the craft and a spirit of innovation and individualism that fosters the skills need to become an artist. An institution gives you a set of skills but artistry is a low priority in such a streamlined product oriented program.

The musicians I've known who have become great players were great upon applying, and they were ALWAYS heavily guided by one or two individuals, and not the program of the institution.
But that's my experience.
I never strove to be an administrator.

**Christian Miller** · 12-15-2021, 06:33 PM

Thanks for the straight up answer Jimmy. That's the impression I've generally got from my research. TBH these factors impact increasingly on UK conservatoires although we are not up to that yet in terms of fees.

Your comments remind me of my friend who teaches a harmony class (classical) at my local conservatoire - Bach chorales, counterpoint, that type of thing. He always got the students to sing through everything they wrote, but this year finds he's being asked to teach the class online because 'it's theory, right?' so they can free up rooms for other courses. So much for an integrated approach...

**Donplaysguitar** · 12-17-2021, 10:40 AM

"Does Berklee have a codified jazz theory?"

1. Firstly, every collegiate program that teaches 4 semesters of freshman and sophomore harmony and theory, and uses a book or two, has something "codified", unless it's disowned by the teachers. (What a mess that would be).

So one could ask - what books do they use in the first 4 semesters, if any?

2. Second, "jazz" theory? No, not really. "Contemporary" music that includes and even emphasizes jazz? Sure.

Class dismissed.

**Jimmy blue note** · 12-17-2021, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar

Class dismissed.

I guess we can all go home now

**Donplaysguitar** · 12-17-2021, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note

I guess we can all go home now

Lol.

They do have jazz improv, jazz arranging, jazz composition courses. But the titles don't use the word "theory". Those courses are in fact teaching some theories because they teach art that involves conventions, practices, stylistic tendencies, etc.

When people say "theory" in the collegiate context they are referring to the first 4 semesters (whether they know it or not). Those 4 semesters are required for all music majors, while those other classes may be electives - depending on one's major (performance, arranging and composition, pedagogy, etc.)

But of course I'm not telling you anything that you don't know, just some other folks. Folks who majored in something else...

**leonedibben** · 08-18-2022, 11:26 AM

I think every school has something special in its way of presenting information and kind of their style. But I have not heard that Berklee school has a unique strategy they stick to and that this strategy influences the music world. But I might not know a lot, so I am ready for new information.
I know that asa miami college has some specific ways of teaching because they are a private school and has worked on developing its style for a long time. I don’t know how it differs from all the other schools, though. I will have to ask someone of the graduates about it.