Secondary dominant extensions / available notes

[christianm77]

OP: "This (thread) applies to both chord voicings and improvisation."

Why is it good? Let's say Benny Green calls you for a gig and your playing "Someday My Prince Will Come" with him and each time for the D7b13 chord in bar 2 you play a C-7 chord and Benny gives you a strange look (he hears that G note in your thing)... and then in bar 4 you play F-7 for the G7b13 (he hears that C note in your thing) , later on he doesn't call you for a follow up gig.

What do want to achieve here? maybe you are trying to draw me into another ultimately pointless long post, maybe trying a gotcha of some kind.

Ah well. This kind of pointless discussion is one of many reasons why I need to distance myself from the theory threads here. I shouldn't have said anything that clashes with the theory people seem so precious about, because people really need to find this sort of thing out for themselves. Eh, it's all on the records. Go listen. Nothing I say will convince anyone, and perhaps that is for the best.

[rpjazzguitar]

Please forgive me for rambling on when I know I shouldn't.

But, who thinks like that? Do people really think "the chord is D7b13 (or whatever), I'll play Cm" and ignore a note that doesn't work (noting, of course, that it's fine if that's your intention). That implies that the soloist is going through the tune thinking X1 over Y1, X2 over Y2 etc .... Does anybody really do that, except in the practice room? Aren't we all using our ears on the bandstand?

[alez]

False relations.

Just because there is a secondary dominant chord in the harmony doesn't mean there is any compassion to outline it. In fact it often sounds better if you don't.

It's also good to think of these chords as minor 7ths. Either on the root, or down a tone.

So, G7b9b13 --> Cm7 becomes Fm7 --> Cm7

Or

D7#9 becomes Dm7

This is a good example of what I meant about comping vs. phrasing on this post:

Also, since you mention Charlie Parker, would this not be some phrasing over a comping that's not necessarily those chords?

That said, is this remark irrelevant in the sense that those very chords can be used for comping just fine?

I'm mentioning this because right now I'm more interested in the comping than I am in what to play over it.

BTW, phrasing Dm7 over D7 leaves you with no voice leading to emphasize in a D7 to Dm7 change like the turnaround Am7 D7 Dm7 G7, doesn't it? I find this sort of opposite to the very idea of "getting the most movement" (post #66 above).

[christianm77]

This is a good example of what I meant about comping vs. phrasing on this post:



BTW, phrasing Dm7 over D7 leaves you with no voice leading to emphasize in a D7 to Dm7 change like the turnaround Am7 D7 Dm7 G7, doesn't it? I find this sort of opposite to the very idea of "getting the most movement" (post #66 above).

Can you email me if interested? I’m sort of done with the forum.

[alez]

I shall, if only to say thanks and be in touch.

I wish you may find a balance that makes the forum work for you as an overall experience. There must be aspects of being around that you do like, otherwise you wouldn't be so active. There must be a way to keep enjoying those

[jockster]

Hi Christian, I really hope you are not done with the forum; your insight, enormous knowledge, patience and sense of humour is one of the the main reasons I read the forum. We need more people like you who take the time to explain concepts to beginners like me for the overall good of this funny thing that is Jazz guitar. All the best for the future and thanks for all the help, Simon

[pauln]

I’m sort of done with the forum.

"Sort of done" - I understand, sometimes I wonder what I'm doing in here.
But I am very relieved that you will be keeping an eye on and a hand in.

[christianm77]

Hi Christian, I really hope you are not done with the forum; your insight, enormous knowledge, patience and sense of humour is one of the the main reasons I read the forum. We need more people like you who take the time to explain concepts to beginners like me for the overall good of this funny thing that is Jazz guitar. All the best for the future and thanks for all the help, Simon

Thanks so much.

I think there are other ways for learning players to seek out information, but to be honest solicited advice is a more worthwhile thing to hand out than unsolicited. So I’ll post vids and things, and leave it at that.

Ultimately posting on JGO doesn’t really fit into what I want to be as an educator either.

To be honest I don’t think JGO is a good place to learn this stuff, regardless of who’s posting. And anyone can post regardless of how they play. Coupled to that, there’s just such a tendency for people to dig in (myself included of course) and I feel sometimes I have to counter what I see as misinformation, which itself is controversial and just results in more verbiage.

In the end it’s much better to embody something as a player and a person and people can take it or leave it as they wish.

Bottom line is I DON’T ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT THEORY - which might seem weird, but theory per se doesn’t interest me in the slightest, and yet I end up getting into threads that probably resemble debates on renaissance doctrine or something. This stuff is all a waste of time; no one ever gives examples from the music, it’s all ‘teacher x said this’ and ‘book y says this.’

It’s just Dungeons and Dragons manuals or something until someone says - ‘it looks like player x likes this sound’, or ‘check this out’ with actual examples from the music.

Ultimately the theory books are all useful only in so much as they give useful generalisations or conceptualisations of what you hear in the music. No one person had heard ALL of the music, so there’s no useful overall theory. your curiosity, taste and desire to learn is the most important thing.

I have come to value the attitude of the old guys - as Peter Bernstein said on a recent interview, they expected you to work it out yourself. You beg, borrow and steal the knowledge any way you can; you go to the primary source, the music. We can be supportive in this, and certainly create an environment that in conducive to this, but I wonder if it’s not a tendency to over explain in general; TMI.