Any tune use V7 #11 resolving to I ?

[christianm77]

i .don't. understand. a. word. you're. saying.

I thought you meant that you can treat Bm7b5 as altered which you can, and sub it in for B7alt. (That’s a fruitful approach if you want to go down tat route.) It’s in the spelling:

1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

As opposed to

1 b9 #9 3 b5 b13 b7

But it’s also a classic bop extension of a G7 chord. Barry and all of that. But then Fats Waller say G7+5 —-> B7+5. And B7–>C is super hip V-I sub that also sounds like the 1920s.

And Pat playing Bm into Bb just shows it sounds good to go a little out and then in again if you can resolve. clearly

But I think putting tritones as in more tritones = better as in whole tone scales, dim scales, 7b9 etc etc is a bebop functional vibe.

If you take out all the tritones you get a softer more floating vibe. Obviously a lot of Jobims music has tritones in it, but in this case I think leaving the F out gives a different colour.

It’s also that prog

F#m7b5 Fm6 Em7 Eo7 Dm G7 C

It’s nice sometimes if you have

D/F# Fm9 C/E Eo7 etc

But a good way to sound modern is to take the tritones out of altered dominants.

[christianm77]

Christian, master of distraction!

The question was if we knew any tunes that went V7#11 to 1. Probably there are quite a few if we allow a 7#11 to be a 7b5.



There's a thing called Bemsha Swing that has it every few bars. But it's not much of a tune :-)

Attachment 65419

No 13

[bako]

G/B as legit F7 resolving to I or F13(#11) > Bb

F X Eb B D G > X Bb D G C E

F X Eb B D G > X Bb X G D F

F X Eb B D G > Bb X A C D G

F X Eb B D G > Bb X G C F A

F X Eb B D G > X X C D F Bb like this better F X Eb B D G > X X Eb A C# F > X X C D F Bb

F X Eb B D G > Bb F A D G C

F X Eb B D G > Bb F C F A D

Not smart enough to reference song examples but I hope the voicings above demonstrate
that it can resolve to I with reasonably musical results. No doubt, some voicings might present more
challenges doing so than others.

[christianm77]

I mean if you see a 7#11 as interchangeable with a 7b5 (I actually think older musicians did) there’s an absolute ton of tunes. For instance McCoy Tyner/Coltrane likely to think of F7#11 as a diminished half-whole chord. With an 8 note scale enharmony doesn’t really work. b5 and #11, who cares?

[christianm77]

no, not at all. i play Bm7b5 in bar 7 and solo just Bm7. you seem to find it "yucky".

otoh i do not like a B7alt there at all, so there . i do use the dom7+ relationships you mention a lot. like in stablemates C7+=Ab7+. but i'm not hearing bar 7 even remotely as V in Bb and wouldn't play it that way.

Sorry I was half joking. I think Bm7b5 sounds more jazzy jazz, and G/B is what Tom wrote. Take yer pick stylistically.

But I do find Bm7b5 to Bbmaj7 to be a weak cadence. Too many common tones. G triad is a bit better at least there’s some contrary motion in there. For soloing purposes could probably play a straight F7alt —> Bb and sound great.

Just drive your bebop truck through that delicate garden.

(I know it’s against our religion, but sometimes a triad is the right sound...)

[bako]

But a good way to sound modern is to take the tritones out of altered dominants.

Brett Willmott's book "Complete Book of Harmony, Theory and Voicing" has a chapter on 4 note voicings
(all drop 2 on middle 4 strings) with 3 extensions (9,11,13 of various colors) which leaves only one more note
to steer towards basic function. Most comprehensive book on the subject of this structure representing that harmony
that I'm aware.

[ragman1]

b5 and #11, who cares?

In practice, in context, not me.

[christianm77]

tom jobim plays it im Bm and on "E/G#" in bar7 the most prominent notes are B and D.

do forget your leadsheets for a second and listen:

you hear those D notes loud and clear i hope?

Fair enough! The versions I heard sounded like a triad to me. (Might be that I missed the seventh but ended up liking the sound of the triad. It was a while back...)

I can’t listen to them now (or any music atm) but I’ll take your word for it.

EDIT - I listened to the first one and that is indeed a hefty D. I stand corrected haha. Still I’ll find a spurious reason why you are wrong, don’t worry. I’ll dig out the original recording I learned it from and see if I made a mistake.

I didn’t learn Insenatez from a lead sheet. The RB has G7/B anyway iirc, so not sure what you are on about there .

[christianm77]

Unless you are getting me confused with my worthy constituent mr ragman of course :-)

[ragman1]

You could do worse :-)

[ragman1]

Anyway, who needs fancy chords? Here's a pure vanilla version, no flake, not an altered sound in it...