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Hello all, I've been visiting this forum for quite a while (great info here!) but this is my first post.
I've been experimenting with using altered dominants modally and have a question about the altered dominant sound in general.
So basically it goes like this:
If I play a major triad and add a b9 to it, it clashes in a "musically unappealing" way, to my ears (and according to jazz conventions). If I arpegiate the major triad I can get away with adding the b9 to a degree, it merely becomes an "avoid note", or a chromatic approach note, or however you want to approach using it melodically. So far so good, makes sense to me.
So why then does adding both the b7 and the b9 make the actual unarpegiated chord (7b9) sound dissonant, but NOT "musically unappealing"? Is this just my ears, or is this how most people hear it? I'm from the metal camp and have good understanding of theory fundamentals, but no formal training or education so maybe i missed something.
The only explanation i can think of from a physchoacoustical perspective, is that the tritone created between the M3 and b7 of the dominant chord is harmonically "softening the blow" of the b9, making is seem less clashy than it actually is, since a tritone is harmonically more dissonant than a minor 2nd. I've tried this with all altered dominant chords, going back and forth between a Maj(add altered note) chord and then adding the b7 and it always sounds better with the b7 and more clashy without it.
Apologies if this has already been addressed, but i've looked everywhere and couldn't find an explanation of what actually makes altered dominants tick so i've only been able to experiment with it and try to figure out the why using my ears. Thanks in advance!
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03-26-2018 10:17 PM
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I think that's the crux of it. The dominant 7 chord is supposed to be dissonant. It's intentionally unsettled so that you want to get to the tonic. Adding altered tones just makes it more unsettled. A major or minor triad is a stable sonority, so adding a dissonant note is changing the quality of the chord.
Originally Posted by DeathByIcePants
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Third's are generally a great organizer. Make anything sound good . I think it's easier to hear thirds on any new type of scale.
I don't know the actual answer answer, but I would imagine that the flat seven gives your ear a context for the flat nine . Basically subconsciously relating it to minor cadence etc.
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Sounds like you're saying musical expectation plays a role...makes sense.The dominant 7 chord is supposed to be dissonant. It's intentionally unsettled so that you want to get to the tonic. Adding altered tones just makes it more unsettled.
Dude now THAT explains a lot...I guess the sonic space between the 5th and the b9 in a Maj-addb9 chord kinda puts the b9 on an island by itself so it sticks out like a sore thumbThird's are generally a great organizer. Make anything sound good . I think it's easier to hear thirds on any new type of scale.
I don't know the actual answer answer, but I would imagine that the flat seven gives your ear a context for the flat nine . Basically subconsciously relating it to minor cadence etc
yeah that does sound better, still clashy but since that harmonic gap isnt as noticable in that inversion it works better, I didn't think about the inversion playing a role in that situation...kinda reminds me of what happens if you play a M7 chord with the 7th below the root, my ear hears it as some kinda slash chord rather than an inversion of an M7, whereas with a 7th chord I can stick the b7 in the bass and not have that issue.no, it's only about the voicing. jazzers play plain triads in first inversion with the b9 in the bass all the time:
xx6433 sounds ok, since the "outside" interval is a maj7 (b9-R), which is more desirable than the interval of a b9 (R-b9)
Thanks for the info guys!
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Listen to the intervals in all different combinations of 2 notes, 3 notes, 4 notes, 5 notes.
Easiest done on piano. You are on the right track when you noticed that the addition of a given note
softens the impact of a more dissonant pair. Explore this up close by playing and listening and I believe you
will arrive at a better sense of things than if given a mathematical explanation.
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Funny you mention that, I started a process of going through maj/min/dim/aug triad arppegio shapes on guitar in all inversions and positions and adding one of the other 9 notes to them it to try and gain a sense of harmonic chromaticism by ear, keeping in mind what scales or other structures the note collection might/could belong to...then I started adding in a 5th note and came up with some "colors" I haven't heard before, really easy way of creating modal "architecture"...I'm still working the process just because of how many practical ways there are of playing triads on the fretboard...doing all intervals that way in 2, 3, 4 and 5 notes will take a long time...yup would def be easier on piano lol. Originally Posted by bako
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ted greene has a vid on youtube .. giving a master class at musicians institute years ago..he approaches the interval of the b2/b9 and demonstrates how Oliver Nelson uses it in the inner voices of chords where it is welcome to the ear..of course forming the chords ted uses may not be for mortals
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Wow what a great vid...that concept of "burying bothersome notes" makes sense...I can see what you mean about his chord fingerings, reminds me of Allan Holdsworth to a degree...for a plectrum-dependent mammal such as myself it's even more a challenge lol. Originally Posted by wolflen
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Dissonance is an acquired taste really. Kind of similar with the use of the tritone power chord with the flat five, or extended chromatisism (many times random
) in metal.. The dominant chord is the de facto place where the "out" playing begins.
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First of all I must congratulate you on your choice of forum name. Welcome to the mad house, in any case... Originally Posted by DeathByIcePants
To add to what others have said above, here is a separate but complimentary perspective.
'I don't play chords, I play movement' Coleman Hawkins via Barry Harris
I like to view chords as horizontal movements into each other, as well as vertical structures. The 7b9 chord is a highly dissonant chord (more or less dissonant depending on how you voice it) but has been in use for hundreds of years, long before jazz or what we think of as modern music.
The reason for this is that classical composers were masters of setting up and resolving dissonances - this was something of an artform. I mean, basically that's what the study of classical harmony and voice leading is, to a large extent.
So why 7b9? Well I teach it by talking about two things, efficiency of the resolution and modal interchange
First of all, 7b9 is parented by the harmonic minor scale
C harmonic minor:
C D Eb F G Ab B C
G7b9
G B D F Ab
The efficiency of resolution lies in how many semitone movements it has to the target chord.
These resolutions also tend to sound more interesting if they are in contrary motion - that is lines going up and down against each other instead of in the same direction. While we can certainly slide a whole chord up down a semitone in the target chord (and this is a common guitar trope) this can sound a bit predictable if we do it all the time. If we take this G7b9 chord into an C minor triad (C Eb G), we have a couple of nice semitone movements in opposite directions.
B--->C
D---->Eb
Ab--->G
And this gives the C minor triad.
If we do the same thing in C major, we have a more efficient cadence, with three semitone movements instead of the usual two you get in a boring G7-C or G9-C. It's more efficient because of the Ab. The resolutions give you the whole major triad.
B--->C
Ab--->G
F--->E
We have basically borrowed the G7b9 chord from the harmonic minor - or looking at it another way. This is called modal interchange - interchange one mode (scale) for the other based on the same root.
This type of borrowing has been around for centuries and bebop uses it heavily too. In fact is so common we jazzers have even invented scales for it -
the harmonic major
C D E F G Ab B C
and the 8-note Major 6th diminished
C D E F G Ab A B C
used by Barry Harris and his students.
Examples of this type of progression can be found in Night and Day (C major with chords borrowed from C minor) and All The Things You Are - modulation from Ab to C instead of the expected Cm (IIIm chord.)
This is not itself an altered chord, it's simply a minor key V chord resolving to a major I chord, although it does point the way for more chromatic structures.... And we see these structures in jazz as well as classical music.
Exercise for the student (:-)) - what seven note structures do you get when the cadence is chromatically the most efficient at resolving into a major sixth chord, C E G A?
1) With a G and no F# in the chord (as it clashes with the F in a G7)
2) With an F# in the chord and no G
Furthermore i have limited this post to resolutions into triads, but of course in jazz we can have more complex major and minor chords than that with extra notes. This can give you more possibilities for creating efficient and pleasing resolutions, but I find it best to start with resolutions into the triad.
Hope that makes sense to someone!Last edited by christianm77; 03-28-2018 at 02:09 PM.
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Yup as a metal head that's why im taking my time exploring it...Love that tension, resolved or not...as long as it's musically relevant and not dissonant just for the sake of being dissonant lol Originally Posted by Alter
Dissonance is an acquired taste really. Kind of similar with the use of the tritone power chord with the flat five, or extended chromatisism (many times random) in metal.. The dominant chord is the de facto place where the "out" playing begins.
AH! so that's where that scale comes from!...I'm familiar with modal interchange/borrowed chords but never made the connection to harmonic major when exploring chord transformations...with classical theory i studied both the common viennese school (7-degree based functional harmony) and the german school (riemannian functions) and found the concepts concerning voice leading much more practical in the german school when it comes to taming dissonant movement (at least with triads), but i've pretty much been stuck on natural/harmonic/melodic minor modes as far as being able to use them harmonically in conjuction with eachother...exiting those 21 modes is where I become "functionally lost", as it were, and just rely on approximations (which don't always work) or just go full "vamp-mode" if I don't know immediately know where i want to go Originally Posted by christianm77
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I'm quite not sure if understand what you mean? At least in reference to playing? Originally Posted by DeathByIcePants
I tend to think major/minor interchange. In any case a lot of this theory is perhaps a little over-specified in terms of just playing solos on jazz standards. A lot depends on what kind of music you want to play.
(Also, practical applications of simple theory can take years on the guitar. I've taught students who know every theory going.... but can they play the triads (1 3 5) of a standard tune non sequentially in every position, and can they play the C major scale all over the neck with one finger and no positions, naming any note they stop on?)
Anyway, I digress. A nice little exercise is to practice the triads and seventh chords through the harmonic major. They naturally have a lot of movement and voice leading to them.
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I think its easier than that. GBDAb isn't a chord. FBDAb is. That simple :-)
They won't like this...
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isn't that more or less just exchanging it for the leading tone chord (assuming G is the V of harmonic minor)? Originally Posted by ragman1
Yea that seems to be the case...using traditional jazz changes in metal songs not exactly my thing (although it sounds cool lol)...modal jazz on the other hand has, so far, had a huge impact on my writing...though applying it with high-gain distortion is a challenge sometimes Originally Posted by christianm77
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No, I'm saying that, for example, Gb9 isn't a chord, any more than vtzpq is a word. There's a maj triad, then there are notes on top of that to create chords - M7,6, M9, 69, #11, M7#5, etc etc. But a (maj)b9 by itself doesn't exist. At least, I've never seen it. The closest I've come is the sus chord GCDAb. Originally Posted by DeathByIcePants
The triad with the b9 (really b2) in the bass exists, as Boston Joe said, but that's a minor, diminished, or dominant sound, not a major one. AbBDG is the top of a Bb13b9.
Of course one can play it (any combination of notes is possible) but GBDAb is more likely as some kind of passing sequence where the bass G is a pedal tone. I mean, you could think of the GBDAb as a Bm6/G or Bo/G. But, as a maj chord in its own right, I'd say it didn't exist per se.
Why does GBDAb sound so awful? Because the dissonance between the G and Ab isn't relieved by anything else, it doesn't go anywhere. Why does FBDAb sound so nice? Because it does go somewhere, it wants to resolve.
What do you think?
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Music codification is made up by humans. Evolution of ideas throughout history is a common experienceGb9 isn't a chord, any more than vtzpq is a word.
as is differing opinions within a single era.
Here's a definition of "chord" from wiki:
A chord, in music, is any harmonic set of pitches consisting of two or more
(usually three or more) notes (also called "pitches") that are heard as if
sounding simultaneously. (For many practical and theoretical purposes,
arpeggios and broken chords, or sequences of chord tones, may also be
considered as chords.
G B F Ab is a common guitar chord as G X F B D Ab.
Is G B D Ab an incomplete chord or is it Gaddb9?
I can remember seeing G X X B D Ab in classical guitar pieces, the octave lending some
breathing room to the b9 interval. Yes it did resolve which casts it in the role of a passing chord.
Jazz musicians in general, tend to name many more passing events than do some classical theorists.
There are some advantages to both perspectives, to summarize only the most important events or to
describe all the details.
G B D Ab inverted also yields Ab B D G ... AboMa7
This chord is most commonly played as a Bb13b9 or E7#9.
C D E F appears to be a chord cluster at best. How about when voiced as D F C E?
Is X X B E G C a chord?
Dave Leibman in his book on chromaticism spoke of disrupter notes.
b9 can be a powerful tool in the service of that intention in addition to
being just an expressive dissonant color.
For whatever reason, I choose to be slow to conceptually disqualify any note collection,
membership into the brotherhood/sisterhood of chordship.
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Yeah, in general I'd say the evolution of Western Harmony has been that harmonies seen as passing dissonances have gradually become more and more classified. Originally Posted by bako
In general, the improvisor has a lot of leeway in terms of which chords they can choose to ignore and which ones they choose to highlight or express.
After all, the dissonant sounds are the most interesting. No one needs to hear too much of the chord that follows a V7b9, for instance, because it's resolution is so inevitable. Maybe one note would do.
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Ah I see what ur sayin...that's a simple way of looking at it, not a bad way, just a simple way...kinda like when i hear the word "Chord" my brain automatically thinks "some tertian-based harmonic structure", because that's the way I'm used to thinking...not that I don't think any combination of notes CAN be a chord...quartal chords are still chords for example, I just automatically make that distinction because I'm so used to thinking in 3rds and quartal harmony hasn't been thoroughly codified the way tertian harmony has. Originally Posted by ragman1
Yeah I remember reading somewhere that Major 7th chords were considered dissonances to be avoided during most of the common practice period so that makes sense...Arnold Schoenberg's concept of "Emancipation of the Dissonance" comes to mind...I guess it depends on how "specific" you want to be with theory too Originally Posted by bako
Disrupter notes, eh? I'll have to check that out Originally Posted by bako
thanks
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I haven't studied Ted, but I do love voicing major seventh chords with the root and seventh in the middle. Originally Posted by wolflen
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That's interesting in light of something I read in Herbie Hancock's book. He said when he was working on some horn arrangements, he went to Miles for some help when he got stuck. Miles told him to focus on making every line a strong melody. Any clashes would be heard as tension and nobody would mind. So it seems like Miles' advice was to resist the tendency to make every passing dissonance a named chord. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I barely hear "dissonant chords" as dissonant anymore (like diminished). I basically need a chord that scares small children to get the effect for myself
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"Sometimes you can't write a chord ugly enough to express what you want to express. That's when you need the giraffe full of whipped cream." --Zappa Originally Posted by joe2758
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Given Herbie was a composition major, it's kind of ironic. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
The trick is in how and when to resolve.
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as I said in my previous post..ted greens points out how over time chord voicings have evolved..to day we hear all types of 11th chords and think nothing of them..11b9 chords .. our ears adjust to common heard voicings..with more experimentation and electronic devices adding to the sound pallet..and the introduction to different tunings..the nomenclature for chords will change also..the standard 6th string guitar now has 7 and 8 strings in some versions..and more to come..and what will we call chords that contain micro-tonal qualities on some notes A7point4..why not..
Jimi Hendrix just opened the door the slightest amount to new ways to use the guitar..and the tidal wave he created is still being felt in all styles of music..there are 12yr olds that can dust most of us under the table in terms of technique and execution. I find it very exciting to be able to see some of this unfold in my lifetime..
remember when Bill Haley & the Comets were "radical" ?
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