Wave analysis using Mark Levine's method

**rpjazzguitar** · 02-06-2017, 02:39 AM

I guess I don't really understand the logic behind that rule about 7b9. Yes, HW works. But, I don't see why the 13th has to be natural. Why not b13? In fact, why not recommend a 9 note scale with b13 and 13?

If you consider a scale to be a pool of note choices -- and you aren't going to play all 8 notes in HW, anyway -- why not go to 9 notes?

Then you "avoid" the natural 7, natural 9 and 4. The 4 actually won't sound bad, but it will make the chord sound more like the iim and less like the V7. Nothing wrong with that, of course, just an artistic choice.

I hope this doesn't sound like a rant. I'm really asking. What am I missing? Why have I not seen this recommended by somebody that knows more theory than I do? Or is this well known, except to me?

**ragman1** · 02-06-2017, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

If you would be kind enough to explain something ... when you say "minor dominant" does that refer to a specific scale, or is it a group of scales (e.g. phrygian, doriant, aeolian etc)?

I don't think that was specifically answered. It is a confusing term. It really means minor of the dominant.

The term dominant refers to the fifth note of a scale. It's also applied to the chord built from harmonising the scale.

In C major that would be G. Harmonised that would be G (dominant)7, thus the minor dominant would be Gm7.

In a minor key the same applies. In A minor the fifth is E. Harmonised (using the harmonic or melodic scale, NOT the natural minor scale) that would be E (dominant)7, thus the minor dominant would be Em7.

**ragman1** · 02-06-2017, 03:09 AM

Re. 7b9 chords.

I'm not sure it doesn't depend on the chords round them. If I saw Dm7b5-G7b9-Cm7 I'd probably use C harmonic. If Dm7-G7b9-CM7 I'd probably use the half-whole diminished.

Technically a 7b9 is an altered chord so you could use G alt although it wouldn't be my first choice.

(In real life, on the hoof, I might just arpeggiate Ab,B,D or F dim... or just treat it as a G7 and stick in an Ab somewhere)

**ragman1** · 02-06-2017, 05:28 AM

In the case of Am7 - D7b9 - GM7 I tend to use G mel based round a Cm chord, (B) C D Eb F G A - resolving nicely into Bm for the GM7.

**ragman1** · 02-06-2017, 05:32 AM

Perhaps you'd all like this as I've done it. It's a sort of minimal/chromatic exercise. There's a nice thing on the bridge at one point. Over Gm7 I half-stepped up a BbM7. Likewise over the Fm7 with AbM7. All good fun.

**destinytot** · 02-06-2017, 07:35 AM

Love the Levine (and the Harris and the Haerle).

Some sounds in a quick video - hadn't noticed before, but I seem to like G lydian in bar 5:

**rintincop** · 02-06-2017, 02:20 PM

On D7b9 play half/whole diminished scale (per Levine by default) D Eb F F# G# A B C

**pingu** · 02-06-2017, 08:18 PM

How do yous guys see the
Bdim in measure 2 ?

Edit ...Ooops that should be Bbdim sorry

I see it as A7 (or Em7b5 A7alt)

I mean functionally ...?

**christianm77** · 02-06-2017, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

First, thank you for the thoughtful reply.

If you would be kind enough to explain something ... when you say "minor dominant" does that refer to a specific scale, or is it a group of scales (e.g. phrygian, doriant, aeolian etc)?

The minor dominant is most often the harmonic minor and natural minor seen from degree V - the latter is used when melodic lines change direction on the seventh. So for example, on an E7b9:

G# B D E F G F | E

Notice how this scale could also be analysed as a half-whole scale line. To me this is akin this is a rather OTT explanation, because the line drops out of the major/minor traditional harmony that was already part of the furniture by the time of bebop.

E F G G# A B C D - E minor dominant (A minor)
E F G G# A# B C# D - E half/whole

So for me the telltale note are the two in bold. Them's your half-whole scale characteristic notes.

With minor dominant, can also add the melodic minor into the mix - which would give you an additional F# to play with.

<i think very often there's one note that defines the scale. for example the thing that really makes a 7b9 sound into an altered sound is indeed the b5, otherwise it's just a minor dominant. >>

For me, it's the #5 and #9 that defines alt (to my ear). I think it's because I tend to play #5#9 when I see alt. So, G7alt is, often, xx3446. To my ear b9b5 sounds like a standard tritone -- not a problem, but not my particular choice for alt. Then, for G7b5#9 I might tend to think about xx5666, but I don't like the sound quite as much. Might be different if I played piano.

The #9 is a standard part of the minor dominant thang (see above) - so for me it has to be b5 on the chord as well. In bebop, this most often comes from the use of the tritone sub.

Also on bop lines, lydian dominant and mixolydian sounds are freely intermingled. The #11 is rarely used as a harmonic sound, but it does happen (TBH I suspect players of the bop era where thinking minor on dominant, because they look to me like they are playing VI minor lines on II7 chords.)

<but the half-whole is not the default old school choice over this chord, and it bothers me that levine's materials don't encapsulate the traditional choices. tbf it's quite easy to confuse minor dominant for half-whole, but the tell tale note is the nat 13.>

I've read Levine, but can't recall anything more than HW or maybe mixo with a b9. I'll have to take a look at his book again.

He is generally light on applications of the harmonic minor, which us bebop heads find a bit risible, because it's basically Bird's favourite scale. I mean the man can undoubtedly play Donna Lee better than I can, so how come he hasn't seen the most obvious example I can think of how a bebop era player would articulate a 7b9 chord using harmonic minor?

<avoid notes on dominant chords are, to my mind, a load of old rubbish (there are non imo), but people need something to worry about i guess>

When I transcribe, I usually just do a passage that is ear-catching in a good way. Oftentimes, those passages emphasize avoid notes. That is b7 against nat7, vice versa, same sort of thing with minor and major thirds and so forth. I do recall Levine mentioning that sometimes the avoid note will be the prettiest note you can possibly play, or words to that effect.

Indeed...

TBH I feel that CST of the Levine school is best taught to people who can already hear music and play changes. The avoid note stuff is really just training wheels, but if people are on the training wheels, IMO, there's better stuff they could be working on.

That said, having played through Levine style stuff on piano, I would say it makes total sense on that instrument.

**rintincop** · 02-06-2017, 08:22 PM

**mr. beaumont** · 02-06-2017, 08:27 PM

Really not that different than a D6/9, is it?

It's certainly not pulling like a dominant of D, to me...

**christianm77** · 02-06-2017, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

I don't think that was specifically answered. It is a confusing term. It really means minor of the dominant.

The term dominant refers to the fifth note of a scale. It's also applied to the chord built from harmonising the scale.

In C major that would be G. Harmonised that would be G (dominant)7, thus the minor dominant would be Gm7.

In a minor key the same applies. In A minor the fifth is E. Harmonised (using the harmonic or melodic scale, NOT the natural minor scale) that would be E (dominant)7, thus the minor dominant would be Em7.

Actually that's not what I meant at all.

Terminology is confusing.

I should probably say minor's dominant - as in the dominant (V) of the minor key. So E is the dominant degree of A minor, and the minor's dominant scale is the scale of A minor seen from the dominant. The equivalent is of course the dominant scale, which we call mixolydian nowadays for some reason.

I don't simply refer to the minor's dominant as Phrygian dominant, because there are several different versions of it depending what type of minor scale you use, and these types of melodies combine them freely.

Minor on dominant I usually mean the minor scale or arpeggio on the fifth of the dominant chord... So E minor on A7 for instance.

**christianm77** · 02-06-2017, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by rintincop

Levine rule:
On Dominant 7th b9 chords play the HALF/WHOLE diminished scale. It's done by Horace Silver and most hard bop and jazz players from the 60's ... (the be bop-ers didn't have the most advanced sense of scale usage; Coltrane, Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter and Miles Davis expanded the scale/harmony menu)

On D7b9 play half/whole diminished scale (per Levine by default) D Eb F F# G# A B C

Thanks for this- I'm interested to know more about the history of the modern usages. I tend to hear a lot of Levine's stuff (and Reg's) as essentially '60s jazz harmony.

I need to get back into transcribing this era of music, complete my understanding of the application of this stuff over time. I feel I have a pretty solid grasp of bop now. I think it would be extremely difficult to understand any of the musicians you mentioned without that ground work, in the same way that bop made a lot more sense after a studying the swing era. Anyway I love that stuff.

**ragman1** · 02-07-2017, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Terminology is confusing.

I'm not confused! That's the correct definition of 'minor dominant' from a number of sources.

E is the dominant degree of A minor

Yes...

and the minor's dominant scale is the scale of A minor seen from the dominant

If A harmonic then it's still A harmonic over the E7 - E F G# A B C D E - called E domb9b13 or E mixolydianb9b13 or E phrygian dominant depending who you talk to :-)

The equivalent is of course the dominant scale, which we call mixolydian nowadays for some reason.

Presumably you mean equivalent in the major scale.

the minor's dominant as Phrygian dominant

This might be the source of the confusion.

Phrygian dominant scale - Wikipedia

Minor on dominant I usually mean the minor scale or arpeggio on the fifth of the dominant chord... So E minor on A7 for instance

Em7/A7 is D major. On Em7, E dorian. Otherwise it would be Em7b5/A7b9.

I hate this stuff.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-07-2017, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

I hate this stuff.

Then, don't post about it. There are other threads on topics related to "what do you think of the Barry Harris method?" or "When is all this theory talk just too much?"

If you post on a thread you DON'T care about, only to argue and complain, you're trolling that thread. It stifles conversation and ruins the thread. This one is actually dedicated to a pretty specific topic and to individuals who ARE actually INTERESTED in having a conversation on that topic.

There are many threads on the boards in which you can go to complain about telecasters, for example. You can even make your own. But if you choose to go to the "telecaster love thread" or "help me decide which telecaster to buy" thread and post your hatred for the topic or telecasters generally, you are, in fact, trolling THAT thread. It would be appropriate for you to start your own thread on your own topic.

For whatever reason, it seems to be politically correct to troll theory threads in a way which would not be accepted elsewhere. A lot of time and goodwill has been put into the answers given here. At the very least, maybe lie, and pretend to be interested or appreciative of others' time.

**ragman1** · 02-07-2017, 11:42 AM

Are you serious? If I wasn't interested in certain aspects of theory I wouldn't be contributing. Saying 'I hate it' at the end is a jokey remark because it does yer brain in. It takes someone with a seriously negative attitude to take it literally. And I've never trolled in my life.

Frankly, I'm getting very tired of your endlessly critical posts, laying down rules, telling people what to do, starting new threads to broadcast your misguided views, moralising, and generally playing politics instead of playing the guitar.

I think you have a problem and I'd quite like you to take it somewhere else.

If you're only doing it to get a rise out of me you may well succeed. And if you're actually a mod on this forum then god help us.

**MarkRhodes** · 02-07-2017, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Then, don't post about it. There are other threads on topics related to "what do you think of the Barry Harris method?" or "When is all this theory talk just too much?"

If you post on a thread you DON'T care about, only to argue and complain, you're trolling that thread.

That may be true, but it also may be true that someone who caps a post revealing knowledge of theory with "I hate this stuff" is kidding.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-07-2017, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Are you serious? If I wasn't interested in certain aspects of theory I wouldn't be contributing. Saying 'I hate it' at the end is a jokey remark because it does yer brain in. It takes someone with a seriously negative attitude to take it literally. And I've never trolled in my life.

Frankly, I'm getting very tired of your endlessly critical posts, laying down rules, telling people what to do, starting new threads to broadcast your misguided views, moralising, and generally playing politics instead of playing the guitar.

I think you have a problem and I'd quite like you to take it somewhere else.

If you're only doing it to get a rise out of me you may well succeed. And if you're actually a mod on this forum then god help us.

I'm not a mod.

When it comes to arguing things, point by point, like you're doing in the above post, at a certain level, one has to ask "what's it about?". When you say that you hate it, I'm inclined to think that probably no one ELSE is enjoying the argument for their own sakes. If YOU'RE not even interested, it's helpful to basically NO ONE.

I interpreted the wrong way obviously. Sorry for misunderstanding. My bad.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-07-2017, 11:54 AM

I think it's also possible to know something, help someone with an analysis, but still think it's gross overthinking and "hate" it.

I sure do. I think a Levine-style analysis of Wave is nuts. But I'd still help if someone asked me (I didn't offer much here as I'm very late to the party and it's been pretty well mapped out already)

**Hep To The Jive** · 02-07-2017, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think a Levine-style analysis of Wave is nuts.

It needed to be said!

**mr. beaumont** · 02-07-2017, 01:03 PM

Which is not to say you can't get anything out of it. It just makes the tune very complicated. But pull out one or two ideas, maybe introduces a sound you hadn't thought of...maybe not.

It's all just methods of organization. In the end who cares how you organize. But ya better organize.

**rintincop** · 02-07-2017, 01:21 PM

Levine doesn't use a "minor dominant" as a jazz theory system. What standard tune exemplifies the use of "minor dominant" ?

**Hep To The Jive** · 02-07-2017, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Which is not to say you can't get anything out of it. It just makes the tune very complicated. But pull out one or two ideas, maybe introduces a sound you hadn't thought of...maybe not.

It's all just methods of organization. In the end who cares how you organize. But ya better organize.

Sure you need some kind of a system to rely on, but the point is, and i brought it up before, this tune is least of all suited for CST. But the talk is cheap. I'm dying to hear some of you hardcore CST folks show me how you do it. On my side, I can guarantee I can play a single line solo with no backing and you can hear all the changes very clear. Without thinking of any scales at all.

**rintincop** · 02-07-2017, 03:20 PM

"Wave" is suited for scale chord associations. No problem if one's brain is trained for high speed chord scale association recognition. For me it's an immediate reaction having trained hard that way for 30 years (and at the same time incorporating all the other common methods such as arpeggios, melodic and chord tone embellishments (target notes and tonal gravity) , pattern playing, triad pairs for improv., blues major and minor scales, pentatonics, rhythmic approaches, outside tricks, etc...). In the old days when I was training I used flash cards all day to train my mind for fast reflex recognition of what scale per what chord. It's effortless at this point and I am glad I trained myself. Also, I would play the entire Real Book every day in the 70's when I trained with him using chord scale association per Levine's 4 scale system:

Major Scale
Melodic Minor Scale
Diminished Scale
Whole Tone Scale