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Hey there. I have a question related to a sentence I read in a scale book related to the Phrygian mode.
It says: "The Phrygian mode is closely associated with Spanish flamenco music. Characteristic of this style is the use of the chord on the flat second degree as a substitute for the regular dominant chord".
I presume it refers to the related Major scale's dominant chord of G7? So if the C Phrygian is C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C then we would replace G7 from the C major scale with the Phyrigian's flat2nd chord Dbmaj7 with a chord progression in C maj?
I was going to post in the scales section but I think it is a very basic question and I thought other beginners may find the answers interesting.
Thanks!
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01-10-2017 07:14 AM
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It means they slide the E up a fret instead of playing B7 which would sound a bit silly after Am - G - F. In fact forget B7, it just confuses everything. It's Am - G - F - E - (F:033200) - E!
At least I think that's what it means
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I'm with ragman 1.
It's about F to E , b2 to 1 in phrygian.
VladanMovies BlogSpot
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A bit dodgy in C though :-)
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If you relate C Phrygian to C major, it's a mess, I mean, for me it is, but I have no clue either way, so ... YEAH!!!
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I played it and can here the style immediately from what you suggest. But even though you said ignore it where did you find the Bdom7 from that you replace with the shifted E? There is no B dom 7 in C, Am or C Phrygian is there, just the Bdim and Bminor 7? Sorry I think you are assuming more knowledge than I have of the process you are using
Originally Posted by ragman1
It means they slide the E up a fret instead of playing B7 which would sound a bit silly after Am - G - F. In fact forget B7, it just confuses everything. It's Am - G - F - E - (F:033200) - E!
At least I think that's what it means
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Sorry I think I confused thing as I was not sure which scale the chord that the b2nd from C Phrygian was meant to be replacing. It probabaly isn't C major! Originally Posted by Vladan
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Dom for minor key...I played it and can here the style immediately from what you suggest. But even though you said ignore it where did you find the Bdom7 from that you replace with the shifted E? There is no B dom 7 in C, Am or C Phrygian is there, just the Bdim and Bminor 7? Sorry I think you are assuming more knowledge than I have of the process you are using
E phrygian over dominant in A minor... basically I think it's just more about suspension to E chord here (sus chord after all))) - you have E in bass and F-A-C all half step above to be resoved to E-G#-B
Another typical phrygian spanish 'falsa' would be just playing minor 9 on dominant...
Try playing Dm and then A7b9 as 0-0-2-3-2-0 ... you will hear this typical style sound too
And it can be even unreleased... though I still hear it as a suspension
As for B7..
B dim is in the key and is vry typical turnaround in minor IV-II-V
B7 is possible also as Secondary dominant B7 to E7... of course it's not in the key as well as it is in major but still it works increasing tension to dominant chord (D7 to G7 in C major is the same thing)
What ragman1 meant is probably that B7 is dominant in E harmonic minor (as opposed to E phrygian in the context)...
If you're in E harmonic minor - you have F# so it makes B7 a dominant...
But in the context it's not the point I believe - the intial quote you put is about E as dominant...
You play E Phrygian chord as a sub (or rather a suspension ) to E7 chord - dominant in A minorLast edited by Jonah; 01-10-2017 at 10:12 AM.
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I see, thanks very much, very helpful!
Originally Posted by Jonah
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I don't think you confused anything. Originally Posted by Babaluma
C Phrygian is mode of Ab major, ragman1 transposed your example to C major, where Phrygian mode is E.Last edited by Vladan; 01-10-2017 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Other post intercepted mine, so had to insert quote and additional explanation, to avoid confusion
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Here's the thing on baroque guitar
It's in D minor
In the introduction he plays Dm (with E above) and then A phrygian dominant... A - F- Bb -D -E it is resolved only at the end of introduction (at 0:22) but still resolved
Last edited by Jonah; 01-10-2017 at 10:23 AM.
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If we speak about Em Phrygian then F chord can be thought as tritone substitution for B7 which is dominant to Em...?
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It makes it a bit messy for me to be honest...If we speak about Em Phrygian then F chord can be thought as tritone substitution for B7 which is dominant to Em...?
B7 is triton sub for F7 (or vice versa) - where both should be dominant chords to some presumable tonic...
if we apply E phrygian as it is done in Spanish ethnic music.. we apply it to E7...
If you said B7 is secondary dom to E7 and F7 is triton sub.. this would have made more sense for me.. but again not for Spanish music I think... they do not use secondary dominants usually...
The whole thing about ethnic modality that it is generically melodic... these chords are derived from intonation... vocal ornamentations etc.
I mean tehse are real linear modes (not modern chord-scales)
But even with that... imho triton sub relations can hardly be heard on the level of triads...
I mean that F triad has only one tone in common with B7.
I Spanish music it's just a 'falsa' - dissonant suspended chord.Last edited by Jonah; 01-10-2017 at 10:47 AM.
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I kind of agree but V -I resolution is for me superior to modal relations, does not matter to minor or major E.
And we are talking Phrygian mode or E Phrygian scale as altered dominant scale over E7 in A Aeollian ?
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But it is V-I... just with suspesion to V. And this suspension is derived from traditional vocal lines... flamenco singers do phrygian all the way... often with no resolution at all...I kind of agree but V -I resolution is for me superior to modal relations, does not matter to minor or major E.
They like sit on dominant phrygian ever...
If they do it long enough you just stop waiting for resolution... then we begin to hear it as just E Phrygian... where E is tonic.
In the linear modality the intervalic relations rythmic accents and repetititopns of sound come forth to estimate realtions
If the player resolves it to Am - then we we begin to hear it as dominant Phrigian in A minor
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... and there we leave trad. and folk and enter playing around with keys and tonalities, where F7 and B7 are equal, regardless of origin. Originally Posted by Jonah
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Originally Posted by Jonah
Agree on flamenco 100% , I just didn't notice it was in the original question.
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Just to illustrate whta I mean..
During vocal lines they stay in C# Phrygian all the time..
During some falsetas Paco plays more harmonic sequences but still he accents C#..
We always hear C# as Phrygian tonic ... everything resolves to C# here
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You said Originally Posted by Babaluma
I moved the key to E to illustrate the point. B7 is the dom7 of E.I presume it refers to the related Major scale's dominant chord of G7?
Your quote:
I said the moved-up E shape was instead of a B7."Characteristic of this style is the use of the chord on the flat second degree as a substitute for the regular dominant chord"Last edited by ragman1; 01-10-2017 at 01:56 PM.
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