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Diatonic - 1st mode is the Ionian as everyone knows
Alt - basically h w h w w w w
Harm - the 1st mode should be harm min..
The rest, who knows... Their names are already mostly describing their 1st mode. Like minor pentatonic.. or major... but just "pentatonic" shouldn't mean a thing then.
Hm. The thing is that all those scales that are made up from those 12 notes, its all so simple. A childsplay. Yet it gets all messed up when traditions come to play.
I need to set the preset scales for an app and when digging into those scales/modes... it just goes topsyturvy when digging deeper..
So, if you have to fill a list of 28 important scales or modes of those, what would you pick for that list? Jazz comes first.
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12-01-2016 09:42 PM
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7 modes of major scale,
Melodic minor and 2 of its modes: lydian dominant and altered
Harmonic Minor and one of its modes: Phrygian dominant/Freigish
Major and Minor Pent
Blues scale (minor pentatonic with passing tone)
Half-whole and Whole-half diminished
Let's say 3 bebop scales: major, minor, and dominant
That's 20 obvious ones. Let someone more knowledgeable pick some non-obvious ones.
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Add the chromatic scale.
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Don't forget Locrian #9 from melodic minor.
And maybe Lydian augmented9 from harmonic minor for colour.
Minor pentatonic 6 scale (1,b3,4,5,6) for minor and ø (1,b3,b5,b13,b7 relative) chords
Whole tone scale
If you need to spend even more time with the old geetar, try harmonic major (major with flat13) and its modes.
Remember to practice these for hundreds of hours before they become obsolete!
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Thanks!
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28 important scales? Where did you read that? Forget it.
Originally Posted by emanresu
There is one important scale. The major scale. The rest are just alterations of it.
(For example, the pentatonic scale is the major scale minus 2 notes.)
While it is helpful to understand modes, they are quite a waste of time in all but a few cases.
You asked so I am giving you my opinion.
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Important or not, I had hard time to decide what modes of the scales should I put on the list. Going for all diatonic and more common harm&alt modes instead all of them... for now. And those few extras.
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What about some altered pentatonics?
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I don't think there's 28. For me there's basically three, with lots of different applications. Originally Posted by emanresu
The most important thing is that you master these three scales in all positions and keys. Get them into muscle memory.
- Major
- Melodic Minor
- Harmonic Minor
If you are pushed for time, concentrate on Major. That's the most important one by far. Then, think about what notes you need to change to get a melodic minor or harmonic minor scale.
After this, master these common applications on dominants:
- Dominant (major mode V)
- Dom7b9 (harmonic minor mode V, but also major mode III with a raised 3rd)
- Altered Dominant (mode VII of melodic minor - Dom7b9#9#11b13)
- Lydian Dominant (mode V of melodic minor - Dom7#11)
However, I find it easier to see things as minors on top of dominants much of the time. The minor can be dorian or melodic minor, or both.
- So minor a 5th up (e.g. Dm on G7) - 13 and 7#11 sounds.
- So minor on b7 (e.g. Fm on G7, perhaps with the Bb raised to B) - 7b9 and 7b9#9 sounds
- So minor up a semitone (e.g. Abm on G7) - tritone sub and 7 altered sounds.
- So minor up a major third - this does get used, but I don't use it much.
This covers all the common scale uses including altered, harmonic major and bebop minor dominant.
Bear in mind I also view m7b5's as inversions of minor chords or dominant chords. Very old fashioned, but it works and gives you the 'textbook' scales - so Bm7b5, for example is G9 or Dm6.
I see dorian as dominant through the ii-V relation - so Dm7 is G7, but you might want to work on Dorian separately Lydian for modern/extended.
Basically, everything apart from major ends up as dominant, basically! Or minor! (Minor covers everything, see Pat Martino.) So in the example of G7
G7(9) --> Dm6 --> Db7alt --> Bm7b5 --> E7(b9) if we raise the G --> (Fmaj7#11)
Anything extra I put in the category 'exotica'
You might want to take a look at symmetrical scales for fun, too. The biggies are:
- Half-Whole
- Whole - Half
- Whole tone
That should keep you busy...Last edited by christianm77; 12-02-2016 at 11:39 AM.
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Ted Greene introduces the 3d and 5th modes of Harmonic Major in the Altered Dominant chapter of Single Note Soloing, Volume 1. He doesn't mention Harmonic Major itself. Originally Posted by yaclaus
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Harmonic Major is fairly low down on the list of priorities IMO. Originally Posted by Binyomin
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The thing about scales is there are millions of them. People get a bit caught up. You don't even need scales to play jazz, really, so it's all optional.
It's best to learn a few scales really well. If you spend a long time on the major scale and find all the ways of using it, you will be doing better than someone who's spread themselves a bit thin. You can solo through any standard with just the mixolydian mode and major scale. A lot of bebop language comes from those two scales.
And of course you can know all the scales in the world, know no tunes, be unable to play time, read music or play by ear; and consequently get no gigs.
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Yeah. Wikipedia says Rimsky-Korsakov named it. Originally Posted by christianm77
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If I'm being honest, I'm not 100% sure I fully understood your post and what your question is. That said, I did have a couple of thoughts...
"Pentatonic" comes from putting together "penta" (which just means 5) and "tonic" (which just means essentially a root note or a tonal center for a key). We tend to refer to the major and minor pentatonic scales as "THE" pentatonic scales, but really it's just A pentatonic scale, or "SOME OF THE" pentatonic scales. You could build your own with any grouping of 5 notes if you chose to. Originally Posted by emanresu
Here's a fun one as an example:
If you drone out the low 6E string and play around with this pentatonic scale, you'll be creating an E7 tonality with the 13, #11, 9, 3, and b7. This is NOT a traditionally common scale or mode or pentatonic scale... but it absolutely is a very common tonality in jazz, and a fairly simple pentatonic scale approach to creating it. The same harmony could be played over using the melodic minor scale... this is just a de-cluttered version of that. Here, we've taken the root and the 5th out of the picture, so all that's left is the 3, the 7, and the colorful upper extension notes.
It sounds like you're trying to develop an app to help organize and learn scales? And you want to come up with the 28 most commonly used scales and modes to focus on within the app? Am I understanding that correctly? Originally Posted by emanresu
I'm the wrong person to ask about something like this, as I speak loud and often about my disregard for scales. The only scale that I spend anytime working on during my practice time is the chromatic scale, running up and down it across the fretboard. Aside from that, I break everything down into small chunks which I think of as melodic structures and spend all of my "scale" time making improvising melodically with them. We're all using the same 12 notes, and the melodic structures could be put together to create scales (or the scales broken down into smaller melodic structures)... but for me, I find it more helpful to start with the musical application ideas and let them build up into scales if and when I want them to, rather than starting with scales and then trying to figure out how to dig inside of them to find musical ideas.
So, if you wanted my thoughts on making an app that helps organize and teach scales, my best advice would be to focus the app on helping musicians get INSIDE the scales and the modes, regardless of which ones you decide to focus on. Help break them down and really HEAR the individual notes within the modes. How do they behave? How do they function? What happens when you emphasize one particular note vs another? Etc.
All that said, I think it's FANTASTIC that you want to organize everything and make a tool that will help you (and hopefully many others) embody the music! I wish you the absolute best with it! And to take my more personal opinion off the table and just try to answer the question of which scales and modes to focus on... I suppose I would break it down this way by importance:
ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL:
-7 modes of the major scale
-7 modes of the melodic minor scale
-major and minor pentatonic
-half whole and whole half diminished
-chromatic scale
(19 scales and modes)
QUITE ESSENTIAL:
-7 modes of harmonic minor
-whole tone
(8 more here... that's 27 total)
The remaining one should probably be either the harmonic major or possibly the augmented... though we're getting more and more into the world of exotic scales... of which there are many. All of which can be cool.
Hopefully I understood your post and your questions. I was trying to be helpful, but I'm not sure if you meant you were trying to develop an app, use an app, or do something else entirely different that I completely missed.
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Thats correct. I have 28 slots for presets and wanted to make it comfy and useful. Can change or add custom stuff but the initial bunch should cover the common stuff. Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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Oh cool, glad I picked up what you were laying down. Hope my post offered something helpful! Looking forward to hearing more from you in the future about how the app turns out and being able to check it out. Originally Posted by emanresu
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It has been helpful, thank you all!
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It also depends on what kind of players you like
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interesting project..but its just the beginning from my viewpoint
yes the Major scale is the primary scale and to count it as ONE scale may or may not describe its use ..it should be counted as 12 scales and its positions should also be mentioned
I refer to Alan Holdsworth who said something along the line of..."..it takes about two years to know a scale.." and as Jordan points out in one of the above posts..not only knowing the scale but all the implied chords-and other scales and their functions embedded in the scale and their primary notes..this would include all possible inversions of chords-triads and four note chords in closed and open voicings-in all keys ...given that approach..the time frame of two years seems about right..
this type of immersion study is along the lines of a Van Epps/Ted Greene/Eric Johnson/Ben Monder and others to the extent that there is no place on the fretboard that is unexplored in any key
I realize not many players dive this deep as it requires a tremendous amount of time and commitment but the result of which is in the playing ability of the above mentioned players..
but yes..I support the development of the app..but I do think it should include text which suggests some of the above ideas as food for thought
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The inversions. Diatonic 1st mode is the plain major as we all know so well. "Harm" would be and start from harm min usually unless "maj" is added. Alt would start from the 7th diatonic step with a flattened 4th. Mel min is another name for it - that'd be the 1st mode of the scale that case but not if the context is "alt"..
So the 1st modes of those scales are not connected to the sound of it but the usage and custom/tradition.
There are 4 inversions of diatonic pentatonic. What is the 1st mode - the starting point?
If you say "alt scale" do you mean an inversion of mel.min? Or its a thing of its own, being the 1st mode and the mel.min is an inversion of it? eh..
Its not that a huge issue really.. The main point of the OP was to get the common scales and I think I got the idea and got it solved already
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The danger with this is that when it comes to playing a song, we sound like we are playing scales instead of playing music. It's like trying to talk to someone by reciting the alphabet.
Spend more time learning melodies and developing your ear (advice I need to follow myself). All the jazz greats learned, at least initially, by playing along with records and figuring out how to play what they heard.
Ultimately in jazz, every key has 12 notes.
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I think of the alt chord: R 3 b5 #5 b7 b9 #9 etc. which usually functions as a V chord. An easy way to hit that is the major scale 1/2 step up from the root of the V chord (e.g., Eb major over a d7). The H-W diminished scale can also be applied in this situation, as can the whole tone scale (something Monk made great use of). Originally Posted by emanresu
It's typical of jazz students to overthink scales at the expense of music. In order to put jazz into academic curricula, it has to be codified. The challenge is for the student to figure out how to get out of those boxes and to play music.
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Quote of the week. Love it! Originally Posted by christianm77
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Well, you can see the altered scale as 7th mode of melodic minor. Or would you rather see melodic minor as 2nd mode of the altered scale? Originally Posted by emanresu
Pentatonic means "5-note". Originally Posted by emanresu
"Major" and "minor" just describe quality of the 3rd (as they do for all scales and chords), although in the common scales they also imply the other standard intervals.
Not really. It gets messed up when you try to look at scales outside of traditions. I.e., when you try to build a theoretical concept without working from the music as it is (in whatever genre). Originally Posted by emanresu
What's the app for? Originally Posted by emanresu
Sorry, but this strikes me as wrong-headed from the start. The idea of lots of different scales is missing the point of music. I'm not sure what the intended use is for your app (where do you see a need for one?), but I see scale theory as follows (I'm not laying down law here, just drawing the picture as I see it after 50 years (on and off) of playing jazz of various kinds): Originally Posted by emanresu
1. The major scale. Only a few centuries old, but the basis of all western music for that time. The basis of major key. Its hold has only partially been broken over the last century.
2. The natural minor scale. Basis of the minor key, and companion to major in the system known as "tonality". Subject to occasional alteration of its 6th and 7th degrees within the course of a single piece. These alterations are sometimes called "harmonic minor" and "melodic minor", but these are not generally used as scales in their own right, only as alterations for harmonic and melodic purposes, usually at cadences.
That's it for functional harmony - music in major and minor keys, with triadic chords in "progressions". Naturally jazz likes to introduce all kinds of chromaticism to make chord changes more interesting, and (in jazz theory if not in practice) this throws up the concepts of other kinds of scale, such as diminished, altered, lydian dominant, bebop scales, etc. In practice, you almost never have to know about these scales - they're mostly theoretical constructs created through reverse engineering. (Diminished is probably the only one that's of much use.)
For modal harmony, things are different. Modal jazz is based on other modes of the major scale, namely dorian, phrygian, lydian or mixolydian. (These are, incidentally the four medieval "ecclesiastical" modes, that predated major and minor keys - but of course jazz usage is entirely different.)
If including modal jazz, therefore, it's important to know those modes, as separate things from major and minor keys. But you can still view them as alterations of the standard major and minor scales, because that tends to be how they sound (to ears accustomed to keys):
Lydian = major #4
Mixolydian = major b7
Dorian = minor maj6
Phrygian = minor b2
(These modes would be used for whole tunes, unlike harmonic and melodic, which are temporary alterations of natural minor/aeolian.)
Harmony in these modes works - in jazz - very differently from harmony in major and minor keys. Chords tend to be quartal ("sus" or "11" chords of various kinds), and chord changes tend to be minimal. There are no functional dissonances, and therefore no "progressions" (in the sense of chords which "resolve" from one to another). Voice-leading can be used, but it's not the engine of the harmony in the way it is in tonal (key-based) music.
That summarises as essentially SIX scale types, on which perhaps 99.9% of all music (at least in jazz) is based.
KEYS: - MAJOR - MINOR (inc harmonic/melodic variations)
MODES: - DORIAN - MIXOLYDIAN - PHRYGIAN - LYDIAN
It's the use of certain altered chord types (in major and minor keys) that implies (wrongly) the existence of scales such as altered or lydian dominant.
IOW, those scales certainly exist - because they've been created and we can play them! - but in practice they're just collections of specific chord alterations and extensions. To see them as "scales" is to misunderstand their purpose. Major and minor keys don't exclude chromaticism (in the way basic modal music does). Every key consists of 7 diatonic notes and 5 chromatics which can be used at any time for voice-leading and improving chord function. It's misleading to see combinations of diatonics and chromatics as forming other scales.
The jazz notion of "melodic minor harmony" is basically a myth. The only chord type based on melodic minor is the tonic minor chord, because melodic minor provides the most consonant extensions. The altered and lydian dominant scales (and others) happen to resemble modes of melodic minor, but they are not derived from melodic minor. They are derived from the way certain dom7 chords are altered to create chromatic voice-leading.
Same applies to the "bebop scales" which are simply diatonic scales (major or minor) with a chromatic passing note added in order to make scale runs in 8th notes land on chord tones. IOW, the above alterations serve harmonic purposes, while the (supposed) "bebop scales" serve melodic purposes. But it still makes no sense to enshrine them as "scales" - it's the chromatic voice-leading that needs to be understood.
As I mentioned, the DIMINISHED scale may be a useful addition, for occasional use within major and minor key sequences, where dim7 chords occur. Again (as with altered etc), it's derived from chord tones and useful extensions, but does have a coherent identity in its own right, even though whole pieces are not created from it. It still needs to be understood from the perspective of the relevant chord.
At a more advanced level, there is a case (IMO) for adding HARMONIC MAJOR and WHOLETONE to the scale list. It's possible to create music based on these scales (atonal music in the case of wholetone). Examples are just very rare. (Wholetone occasionally emerges as another altered dominant scale, of similar value to diminished.)
I'm aware that I'm setting up certain artificial boundaries here. In modern jazz, functional and modal concepts are frequently combined. But IMO it clarifies the issues to separate the two sets of principles, because (in their pure form) they follow very different rules. (Early modal jazz was very careful to set itself apart from functional jazz.)Last edited by JonR; 12-03-2016 at 12:38 PM.
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Ear training. The link is there in my signature. The app is bottom of the list. I you click on "dLoc", it opens the menu for it. I put some down now but need to fix some bugs, make the scale dialog to function, then reread this thread before making it final. Originally Posted by JonR
Btw. This is the coolest forum around, thanks again
Last edited by emanresu; 12-03-2016 at 01:24 PM.
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