Problems with description of diminished scales

[Ron Stern]

A lot of confusion is caused by imprecise nomenclature. Is it necessary?


This is how I approach a scale:


First of all, it has a single unique name. If there's a justification for two names for the same scale, let's hear it.


On the internet and in books I see half whole, whole half, fully diminished, dominant diminished, etc. This means that right off the bat the term "diminished scale" is slop.


Proceeding on:


1. Formula
2. chords that the scale is consonant with, or can be forced over
3. harmonized
4. other possible applications brought in by chord substitution


Fingering patterns waste more time. It's like telling someone to start the car before you drive it.

Multiply the time wasted by as many times as you say, wait, we're talking about a different scale now.

[blille]

A lot of confusion is caused by imprecise nomenclature. Is it necessary?


This is how I approach a scale:


First of all, it has a single unique name. If there's a justification for two names for the same scale, let's hear it.


On the internet and in books I see half whole, whole half, fully diminished, dominant diminished, etc. This means that right off the bat the term "diminished scale" is slop.


Proceeding on:


1. Formula
2. chords that the scale is consonant with, or can be forced over
3. harmonized
4. other possible applications brought in by chord substitution


Fingering patterns waste more time. It's like telling someone to start the car before you drive it.

Multiply the time wasted by as many times as you say, wait, we're talking about a different scale now.

Well, or you can think of "diminished" like you think of "diatonic".

[Binyomin]

Whole-half and Half-whole are different scales, depending on which interval you start with. The plain old diminished scale is probably the whole-half--you play it over a diminished chord. If a scale is called the diminished blah blah scale, then it is probably yet another scale that someone decided to name that way. You just have to know what the person referring to the scale means.

[Rhoderick]

Hello.
The Diminished scale is also called The Octatonic Scale,
You can find a basic explanation of their use, as a PDF, at the following

http://legacy.earlham.edu/~tobeyfo/m...ic%20Scale.pdf

And here...
http://www.hearandplay.com/main/how-to-harmonize-the-octatonic-scale




Music is the key that can open strange rooms in the house of memory.

Llewelyn Wyn Griffith

[christianm77]

I like half whole and whole half as names. Does what it says on the tin.

That said you have to know that whole half goes on dim7s and half whole goes on dominants.

[Rob MacKillop]

I not even sure the diminished-seventh chord actually exists. It seems to always work as a V7b9 chord. In that case it's more likely to generate a half-whole scale.

[destinytot]

There's a natural 7th to a diminished scale, isn't there? ("The song..." - second note of Stella by Starlight.)

[christianm77]

I not even sure the diminished-seventh chord actually exists. It seems to always work as a V7b9 chord. In that case it's more likely to generate a half-whole scale.

It exists in other functions. For example:

F F#o7 C/G
Ebo7 Dm7 G7 C
Dm7 G7 Co7 Cmaj7
etc

These progressions can be interpreted as a 7b9, but the resolution is not typical V7b9-I or related.

(In this case I would actually treat the root of the dim7 in each case as a raised 1, not a lowered 9th, if that makes any sense.)

In these cases I would more likely use the whole half scale. In most situations with the dim7 as a US of a dom7 chord, I would tend to use something else (minor's dominant) unless I was making a point of it.

[christianm77]

There's a natural 7th to a diminished scale, isn't there? ("The song..." - second note of Stella by Starlight.)

Well that's a classic example of diatonic melody/chromatic harmony. The interpretation works from a jazz point of view, but I doubt that's the way the composer thought of it.

These kinds of chords are very common in the repertoire though. Often a suspension in the top line from the previous chord.

[destinytot]

Well that's a classic example of diatonic melody/chromatic harmony. The interpretation works from a jazz point of view, but I doubt that's the way the composer thought of it.

These kinds of chords are very common in the repertoire though. Often a suspension in the top line from the previous chord.

Kind of like Green Dolphin Street?

[henryrobinett]

I don't call it anything. I just play it. The ONLY time I ever call it anything is when I have students. What it's called is kind of irrelevant. It's one of those sticky wickets people like to get stuck on.

[JonR]

I not even sure the diminished-seventh chord actually exists.

Sure it does. Take the harmonic minor scale, and build a 7th chord on the vii degree; see what you get.

It seems to always work as a V7b9 chord.

Yes. Both the V and vii chords have the same function. But the latter is not just a rootless V7b9; any more than an Fmaj7 is just a rootless Dm9, just because both have the same pre-dominant function in C major. (You can describe them like that, but you wouldn't then say Fmaj7 doesn't exist. )

In that case it's more likely to generate a half-whole scale.

Kind of. The V7b9 and viio7 take the same scale, but it's half-whole counted from the root of V7, and whole-half counted from the root of viio7

In key of C minor: G7b9 = G HW dim = G Ab Bb B C# D E F; Bdim7 = B WH dim = B C# D E F G Ab Bb.

It might seem like the HW would also fit a dim7 - it contains all 4 chord tones after all - but jazz chord-scale theory prefers scales that add passing notes a half-step below chord tones, not a half-step above.

[Rob MacKillop]

Yes, I can see that. Thanks.

[christianm77]

Kind of like Green Dolphin Street?

Not sure I'm with you - which bit?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Well that's a classic example of diatonic melody/chromatic harmony. The interpretation works from a jazz point of view, but I doubt that's the way the composer thought of it.

These kinds of chords are very common in the repertoire though. Often a suspension in the top line from the previous chord.

I'd assume that problems with naming diminished and notating it is mostly the result of the Western music's outgrowing an older set of conventions for talking about harmony, notating harmony etc.

I really like Barry Harris's thing for renaming the seventh of the diminished chord as a sixth btw. That made immediate sense to me when I read it. Diminished sevenths and all of the conflicting enharmonic notes spellings between harmony and melody are enough to make you want to pull your hair out.

[Ron Stern]

Well, or you can think of "diminished" like you think of "diatonic".

How so?

[Ron Stern]

Whole-half and Half-whole are different scales, depending on which interval you start with.

They're different scales no matter what note they start on.

The plain old diminished scale is probably the whole-half--you play it over a diminished chord.

"Probably" doesn't get it.

If a scale is called the diminished blah blah scale, then it is probably yet another scale that someone decided to name that way. You just have to know what the person referring to the scale means.

No, they have to justify their nomenclature.

[blille]

How so?

As a group of scales with shared traits.

There are several diatonic scales that share some characteristics just like there are several diminished scales that share characteristics.

My point is that you may be asking too much from the term diminished, holding it to the standard of a specific scale, like lydian, as opposed to using it like you would use diatonic.

[destinytot]

Not sure I'm with you - which bit?

[mrcee]

I'd assume that problems with naming diminished and notating it is mostly the result of the Western music's outgrowing an older set of conventions for talking about harmony, notating harmony etc.

I really like Barry Harris's thing for renaming the seventh of the diminished chord as a sixth btw. That made immediate sense to me when I read it. Diminished sevenths and all of the conflicting enharmonic notes spellings between harmony and melody are enough to make you want to pull your hair out.

Interesting that Barry Harris refers to it as a 6th. That's the way I always did it years ago but thought that I was just being a lazy amateur. I'll defer to Barry.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Hello.
The Diminished scale is also called The Octatonic Scale,

Well, it's *an* octatonic scale. There are others, like various "bebop" scales.

[christianm77]

I didn't know he did this. Depends on context I guess. If you have a harmonic minor, I'd personally rather have the right enharmony. For the whole half scale it's not important.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I didn't know he did this. Depends on context I guess. If you have a harmonic minor, I'd personally rather have the right enharmony. For the whole half scale it's not important.

I must have picked out up from roni Ben hur's bh book...

[wolflen]

Sure it does. Take the harmonic minor scale, and build a 7th chord on the vii degree; see what you get.
Yes. Both the V and vii chords have the same function. But the latter is not just a rootless V7b9; any more than an Fmaj7 is just a rootless Dm9, just because both have the same pre-dominant function in C major. (You can describe them like that, but you wouldn't then say Fmaj7 doesn't exist. )
Kind of. The V7b9 and viio7 take the same scale, but it's half-whole counted from the root of V7, and whole-half counted from the root of viio7

In key of C minor: G7b9 = G HW dim = G Ab Bb B C# D E F; Bdim7 = B WH dim = B C# D E F G Ab Bb.

It might seem like the HW would also fit a dim7 - it contains all 4 chord tones after all - but jazz chord-scale theory prefers scales that add passing notes a half-step below chord tones, not a half-step above.

to me..while this approach is technically correct..it is confusing at least..in the overall view both "scales" could be correctly called D diminished scale ( Ddim/Ab ..D dim/B..as the notes are the same..

naming a G dim scale(WH) that begins on the note F# an F# dim scale(HW) makes little sense to me..calling a G Major scale starting on F# an F# scale would drive many players over the edge..(not a mode name please) .. music theory- in its present state is confusing enough for new and some seasoned players-luck for us we can work around the suggestions with little to no harm done to the musical universe..

starting a diminished scale on its own 8th note and naming it a different scale always seem overly complex to me--when several top name players taught me a much easier way to digest the dim scale...there are only 3 dim scales C Db D..and each scales has many embedded chords ..starting the scale on another note does NOT change its Name..a C dim scale starting on B is just that..now I just had to work with three scales and its symmetrical points..while many name diminished chords with the Bass note as the root..knowing the "parent" of that chord takes much of the mystery out of symmetric harmony--F Dim Ab Dim B dim are all from the Ddim parent scale..now that I had the logic of the scale I didn't have to "think" of the why and where any longer..much easier for me..

I use arpeggios and scale fragments from the embedded chords rather than play/think of the diminished scale - as there are major, minor, dominant and altered dominant chords-including two tritone scales..which are very cool ascending and descending..all of which can open up many paths to other harmonic/melodic ideas..and it avoids the predictable sound of the dim scale..so in effect you get the function of the dim scale and all the tools embedded in it

and I also numerate the scale tones 1 b3 b5 6 .. the use of double flats and sharps have their place..this is not one of them..at least for me..

[christianm77]

Thinking about it, enharmonically speaking, I don't think of dim7's from the root really - I think about where they are in the key... So

In C

Bo7/Abo7 - VIIm7b5, but flat the 6 of the key
F#o7 - IV chord, but raise the 4 lower the 7 of the key
D#o7 - IIm chord, but raise the 4, raise the 2 of the key

If that makes any sense.