Chord scale theory is the opposite of...

[princeplanet]

So, you and princeplanet are one same person? Good to know.

VladanMovies BlogSpot

Haha! Be careful, you might have offended our good colleague Christian. Let's just say that about some things we may vaguely be living on the same planet....

I also think there's a Jazz tradition that expects the learner to be able to play certain exercises, for example - unbroken 8ths against a common Jazz tune where you play nothing but chord tones on down beats and embellishments (diatonic or chromatic ) on the off beats.

It takes years to sound good at just that, and I think I can tell which players have put in the hard yards there, not because they always play like that, but because they can slip in and out of playing like that whenever they wish.

[christianm77]

Haha! Be careful, you might have offended our good colleague Christian. Let's just say that about some things we may vaguely be living on the same planet....

I also think there's a Jazz tradition that expects the learner to be able to play certain exercises, for example - unbroken 8ths against a common Jazz tune where you play nothing but chord tones on down beats and embellishments (diatonic or chromatic ) on the off beats.

It takes years to sound good at just that, and I think I can tell which players have put in the hard yards there, not because they always play like that, but because they can slip in and out of playing like that whenever they wish.

Shhh, I'm having a sulk.

[MarkRhodes]

Personally, I don't give a F if I place chord tones on beats as long as it's clear there's some tonic around and I think it sounds good. Is it really such a big deal? If musicians can tell I'm a novice, what would uneducated audience say? Would they object, or maybe even find it better on the ear, brain and stomach?
AlsoI'm not quite sure how it's really connected, scales and chord tones on beats? Is there some rule saying you always have to play the whole scale begining to an end and use all the scale notes along the way!

There is a test for this. I heard about it from Jamey Aebersold. Take a play-along track and listen to it without your guitar in hand. Instead, sing a solo. Scat, whatever. Make music with your mouth alone. Tape that and play it back. Play what you sang and you'll likely find chord tones landing on strong beats much more often than you would expect. Jamey says it's what humans tend to do. It's why some people can make great music without much knowledge of music.

[princeplanet]

There is a test for this. I heard about it from Jamey Aebersold. Take a play-along track and listen to it without your guitar in hand. Instead, sing a solo. Scat, whatever. Make music with your mouth alone. Tape that and play it back. Play what you sang and you'll likely find chord tones landing on strong beats much more often than you would expect. Jamey says it's what humans tend to do. It's why some people can make great music without much knowledge of music.

And another good test is to listen to a solo without the backing band. You often can hear the implied harmony in the great jazz soloists. Try the same with Rock guitarists, you often just hear the tonic chord being implied....

[mr. beaumont]

There is a test for this. I heard about it from Jamey Aebersold. Take a play-along track and listen to it without your guitar in hand. Instead, sing a solo. Scat, whatever. Make music with your mouth alone. Tape that and play it back. Play what you sang and you'll likely find chord tones landing on strong beats much more often than you would expect. Jamey says it's what humans tend to do. It's why some people can make great music without much knowledge of music.

Right.

The concept of practicing lines so that chord tones fall on strong beats is the silliest thing I've ever heard. And the resultant ridiculous "bebop scales" that aim to make your playing do that...Listen to good players, sing in your head.. Hear good lines. More often than not, a good line sounds good because of this. But you have to hear it. It has to be the music that plays in your head.

[MarkRhodes]

And another good test is to listen to a solo without the backing band. You often can hear the implied harmony in the great jazz soloists. Try the same with Rock guitarists, you often just hear the tonic chord being implied....

This is true. Sonny Rollins is often cited as an example of this---and he has performed solo and demonstrated this---but pretty much any good jazz soloist playing a jazz standard is going to imply the changes.

Here's a great example by Herb Ellis, playing with bassist Dave Maslow. (The solo starts around the 2:00 minute mark.) This shifts from "It Might As Well Be Spring" to "Things Ain't What They Used To Be."

[MarkRhodes]

Right.

The concept of practicing lines so that chord tones fall on strong beats is the silliest thing I've ever heard. And the resultant ridiculous "bebop scales" that aim to make your playing do that...Listen to good players, sing in your head.. Hear good lines. More often than not, a good line sounds good because of this. But you have to hear it. It has to be the music that plays in your head.

I think those are separate things. We do the vocal thing naturally enough (and if you 'play what you sing' you may do it on your guitar too.) But one reason Barry Harris emphasizes his half-step rules for scales is that it doesn't help a jazz player at all to play major (or minor or mixo) scales up and down because it's not rhythmic. When you add a note, the scale ends on beat one, rather than on the and-of-four, leaving beat one silent. But when you add a note---or three or five (which results in the line ending on other beats)---you realize THAT is what so many of your favorite bebop players were doing. Those lines are idiomatic bebop lines. (And they aren't as naturally sung as the root, third, and fifth of a major triad.) So it is good to practice them. If you're playing an angular line that runs for 7, 8, of 9 beats, you have to know where to start in order for it to end where you want it to. Eventually, you can do it without much thought, but it is a rare bird who can get to that point without a lot of conscious practice. (And we know how much Bird practiced!)

This, I think, is the main reason noodling sounds like noodling and why Charlie Parker never sounded like noodling. He knew where he was heading and stopped (or paused) when he go there. Then he started off for somewhere else.

[mr. beaumont]

I think those are separate things. We do the vocal thing naturally enough (and if you 'play what you sing' you may do it on your guitar too.) But one reason Barry Harris emphasizes his half-step rules for scales is that it doesn't help a jazz player at all to play major (or minor or mixo) scales up and down because it's not rhythmic. When you add a note, the scale ends on beat one, rather than on the and-of-four, leaving beat one silent. But when you add a note---or three or five (which results in the line ending on other beats)---you realize THAT is what so many of your favorite bebop players were doing. Those lines are idiomatic bebop lines. (And they aren't as naturally sung as the root, third, and fifth of a major triad.) So it is good to practice them. If you're playing an angular line that runs for 7, 8, of 9 beats, you have to know where to start in order for it to end where you want it to. Eventually, you can do it without much thought, but it is a rare bird who can get to that point without a lot of conscious practice. (And we know how much Bird practiced!)

This, I think, is the main reason noodling sounds like noodling and why Charlie Parker never sounded like noodling. He knew where he was heading and stopped (or paused) when he go there. Then he started off for somewhere else.

It just seems to be a name put to common chromaticisms...something listening and transcribing would give a player without ever putting a "rule" on it.

I see the lines people talk about that use this, And I hardly ever think of them as coming from a scale. But if it helps folks to analyze it that way, it's all good.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Right.

The concept of practicing lines so that chord tones fall on strong beats is the silliest thing I've ever heard. And the resultant ridiculous "bebop scales" that aim to make your playing do that...Listen to good players, sing in your head.. Hear good lines. More often than not, a good line sounds good because of this. But you have to hear it. It has to be the music that plays in your head.

It's not horrible, as a beginning exercise , for how to make scales sound generally a little more musical . I guess it gets you thinking about chord tones more. But then these kind of things get turned into kind of "rules", and they're just not . They're "broken" by too many great players too often.

Bert Ligon insists that, when practicing lines of any type, that you practice it starting ON, BEFORE, and AFTER the beat. I'm always struck by how a good line sounds good when displaced , often better. You can play them on triplets , and they sound great as well. That being said, he doesn't really emphasize the scale thing on the strong beat as much, either.

Anyway, good melody is basically it's own the reference , and can handle much reworking, rhythmically. Rhythmic displacement is about 90% of playing a simple melody in a jazz style anyway. Isn't it? The strong beat thing is an exercise not a rule, and is one of the most misunderstand elements of beginning jazz pedagogy IMO. Its importance is inferred by beginners and jazz passers-by as being much more than it should be, for whatever reason.

[mr. beaumont]

Agreed about the placement of the line.

Sometimes when I transcribe I'll just jot down the rhythm of a good line, won't look at pitch at all.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I think those are separate things. We do the vocal thing naturally enough (and if you 'play what you sing' you may do it on your guitar too.) But one reason Barry Harris emphasizes his half-step rules for scales is that it doesn't help a jazz player at all to play major (or minor or mixo) scales up and down because it's not rhythmic. When you add a note, the scale ends on beat one, rather than on the and-of-four, leaving beat one silent. But when you add a note---or three or five (which results in the line ending on other beats)---you realize THAT is what so many of your favorite bebop players were doing. Those lines are idiomatic bebop lines. (And they aren't as naturally sung as the root, third, and fifth of a major triad.) So it is good to practice them. If you're playing an angular line that runs for 7, 8, of 9 beats, you have to know where to start in order for it to end where you want it to. Eventually, you can do it without much thought, but it is a rare bird who can get to that point without a lot of conscious practice. (And we know how much Bird practiced!)

This, I think, is the main reason noodling sounds like noodling and why Charlie Parker never sounded like noodling. He knew where he was heading and stopped (or paused) when he go there. Then he started off for somewhere else.

I dig Barry Harris and what he's doing. I'm definitely checking it out and playing through some. Again, a lot of of it is just a starting point, in my mind. Really gets you some training in creating rhythmically strong melody , in certain, very specific ways.

Good melody is good melody . I still think much of that stuff sounds great displaced or played on triplets or whatever. It's ok to learn things one way first , and I'm cool with that.

[princeplanet]

I dig Barry Harris and what he's doing. I'm definitely checking it out and playing through some. Again, a lot of of it is just a starting point, in my mind. Really gets you some training in creating rhythmically strong melody , in certain, very specific ways.

Good melody is good melody . I still think much of that stuff sounds great displaced or played on triplets or whatever. It's ok to learn things one way first , and I'm cool with that.

Yes, that's the point of the exercises, to train you into the habit of expressing the chord of the moment, which is kinda like sticking to the railway track. Do that enough, they'll tell you, and you can then choose to move on and off the track at will, or even float above it, but you should still be able to pull straight back to the track at any moment.

When I listen to the the greats (past and present), that is what I think I'm hearing. You can't sound like that without first practicing the "rules" for a long time. Sure, you can find original ways to play that eschews these rules, but it won't sound like Bop based playing, which for many of us, is still the real basis for most kinds of "Jazz".

[christianm77]

Right.

The concept of practicing lines so that chord tones fall on strong beats is the silliest thing I've ever heard. And the resultant ridiculous "bebop scales" that aim to make your playing do that...Listen to good players, sing in your head.. Hear good lines. More often than not, a good line sounds good because of this. But you have to hear it. It has to be the music that plays in your head.

Bad man. Naughty bad flame war provoking naughty bad man.

I never say things to get a rise out of people, ever ;-)

[christianm77]

Vis 'bebop' scales.

A bebop scale can be an ordinary scale where you just start the first note on the offbeat of 1, or hold the first note for a quarter note, or go 1 6 b7 6 5 3 2 1 or sommat.

It's not necessarily about the chromatic. It's about thinking of a rhythmic phrase and making the frickin' notes work. You might question the need for a fancy set of rules to guide this, and you might be fine doing this without....

Anyway, I see very few examples of classic example #1 of the How to Play Bebop David Baker bebop scales in the music of Bird. The obvious example is Donna Lee, which I do think was a Miles composition. There's something inherently square about the concept that seems alien to Bird, although I find it helps to know how to be on the beat with your chord tones if you then want to play around with that expectation.

The Clifford I have transcribed tends to use the tactics I have described above rather than chromatics

I confirm that too much practice of added note scales on the beat made my up tempo playing a little foursquare for my liking. It's important to work on things that start and finish on the upbeat. Needless to say, Barry has a thing to work on that, too.

Barry Harris is about turning scales (well the dominant scale) into music. He has guidelines to do this. Many guidelines. YMMV. But, I find that one of his patterns can keep me in practice for a month or two. In a sense it's no different to any other pattern work, except of course that BH's patterns can be chopped up and melded into idiomatic bop phrases that are not simply cliches or licks ripped off records.

A good alternative approach that would lead to very similar results (among others) would be Galper's Forward Motion concept.

[ragman1]

That's the problem with humans, they are always looking for a list of 10 commandments or something. And history has proved time and time again, that doesn't work, in any context.

EXACTLY!

[Drumbler]

Of course there is more than 1 scale to contain same 4 chord tones, as well as you can turn the thing upside down and consider those 4 tones to be connecting ones ...
Personally, I don't give a F if I place chord tones on beats as long as it's clear there's some tonic around and I think it sounds good. Is it really such a big deal? If musicians can tell I'm a novice, what would uneducated audience say? Would they object, or maybe even find it better on the ear, brain and stomach?
AlsoI'm not quite sure how it's really connected, scales and chord tones on beats? Is there some rule saying you always have to play the whole scale begining to an end and use all the scale notes along the way!


VladanMovies BlogSpot

You'd be cast out of the jazz club like Kenny G.

But you'd drive a really nice car and live in Malibu.

[jordanklemons]

Shhh, I'm having a sulk.

I did this the other night. With a cup of epsom salt. Ahhhhh... so relaxing.

[MarkRhodes]

That's the problem with humans, they are always looking for a list of 10 commandments or something. And history has proved time and time again, that doesn't work, in any context.

I see this as more of a modern tendency. If you look at Aristotle's Ethics, there are no commandments in it. It's about habit rather than rules. (Almost every modern who picks it up soon sets it down in frustration crying, "Just sum it up in something I can jot down on an index card, for godsake!")

And if you look at the actual ten commandments, they're very general (don't murder, don't steal, respect your parents, hands off your neighbor's spouse...) The musical equivalent of: listen to the other members of the band; if you don't know what to play, lay out; learn tunes; show up on time, and sober; don't mess with the spouses of bandmates---it never ends well.

Stephen Toulmin wrote about the modern obsession with certainty and exactness in his book "Cosmopolis." The ancients and medievals were not obsessed with those things. (They may have had other obsessions but not those.)

Moderns are the first people in the world to think they should be able to read a short article and really understand something it takes serious students decades of study and experience to master. It's like teenagers talking about what they'll name their band and what to put on their first album even though they can't play a single song from start to finish. Maybe they haven't even gotten to the part about having instruments at all yet...

[pingu]

the improv line is like gymnastics ...
Its nice to be elegant when flying though the air but you can pull some weird shapes and thats ok

But you sure better land good
Ie intentionally ...

or you got a problem !

[MarkRhodes]

the improv line is like gymnastics ...
Its nice to be elegant when flying though the air but you can pull some weird shapes and thats ok

But you sure better land good
Ie intentionally ...

or you got a problem !

In homiletics (-"preaching") class in seminary, this was called "landing the plane." As in "you gotta know how (and when) to land the plane." At least with music you have a beat to work with (-provided you can find "one"). What was the old Keith Moon line, "As long as you begin and end well, nobody remembers what happened in between." Something like that. An overstatement, but there's a good reason there are so many "patent" intros and endings for solos: they work (and not just any-old-thing will).

[ragman1]

In homiletics (-"preaching") class in seminary

Ah. I always thought priests and jazz were a very interesting combination :-)

[MarkRhodes]

Ah. I always thought priests and jazz were a very interesting combination :-)

Here's the obit for Rev. Norman J. O'Connor, aka "The Jazz Priest."

Rev. Norman J. O'Connor, 81, 'Jazz Priest' - The New York Times

[TiagoMiguel]

Scales are just theoretical, I think to just make it explainable.


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[wolflen]

I see this as more of a modern tendency. If you look at Aristotle's Ethics, there are no commandments in it. It's about habit rather than rules. (Almost every modern who picks it up soon sets it down in frustration crying, "Just sum it up in something I can jot down on an index card, for godsake!")

Moderns are the first people in the world to think they should be able to read a short article and really understand something it takes serious students decades of study and experience to master. It's like teenagers talking about what they'll name their band and what to put on their first album even though they can't play a single song from start to finish. Maybe they haven't even gotten to the part about having instruments at all yet...

one reason I wont teach "kids" speed - they just want to play fast..no theory..no keys..no scales..no chords..just fast..(and can you show me how to play fast in like 10 mins..)

[ragman1]

Here's the obit for Rev. Norman J. O'Connor, aka "The Jazz Priest."

There's always one :-)

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