Chord scale theory is the opposite of...

[christianm77]

BTW - the development of jazz away from a functional conception towards a modal conception is really reflected in music generally.

It's not quite CST, but modern music is very modal - the type of harmonic songwriting he see in Tin Pan Alley songs, even the Beatles to an extent, is no longer part of the musical vernacular. Also, in film music as mentioned above.

OTOH jazz has been able to find common ground with Non-Western music that involves improvisation on scales because of this common ground...

Probably the most distinctive thing about jazz harmony is the fact that musicians (post 1959) are interested in forming chords from modes and so on.... The was jazz musicians use modes is definitely not the same as the way any other musical traditions use scales.

Therefore, I'm keen to define a distinction between scales, modes and chord/scales. To me they are all different things. One apparent weakness of the texts I've read is that they are not always very clear on defining the difference.

Stepwise scale use in Charlie Parker is different from using a CST sound vertically, for example a stack of thirds on a chord in perhaps the same solo, at least in my understanding. You use different scales, for a start... There is an interesting grey area between them, but they are not the same thing.

The unification of the elements into one overarching theory, IMO, is a bit of a waste of time. But again, I wonder how much of this confusion just comes done to my having not played the piano and being exposed to modal approaches to improv early on..... I mean I get it now, but it was a roundabout way of getting there.

[Vladan]

Dear Santa,

Please show me how to make the single-note playing of messrs Tyner, McLean and Shaw happen on guitar - or the reindeer gets it.

I see you are in humorous mood, this could be good Christmas time joke, but often I hear it said seriously.

I do not think it is something one should ask for. Do horn blowers care for recreating guitar lines? I don't think so.
There is my all time favourite of Zappa's band horn section playing the solo of Stairway To Heaven, I don't know how many of them, all in unison. It was rather hilarious experience the first tie I've heard it. It's still funny, but that's it. The original, as much as it became old, no matter how much some mock it, as complex or simple as it ever was, is still one serious, if not great rock guitar solo. Why would so many people like it if it was not?

I see no reason for guitar players to undermine and underestimate own art on own instrument.

Start the rant ...

If I wanted to play horn lines, I'd play horn. I want to play guitar lines. I want the lines I play to be all mine. Possibly nicked from someone, but in my own version, style and feel. Not really recognizable. At least played in different context with different meaning.
To digress further, I absolutely have no desire, zero, about nailing nuance of anybody's performance. There is no performance I find worth nailing. Even if I may think it was perfect, it does not mean I (completely) liked it. If I decide to play it, what I liked in it is recreated and nailed enough in my version, the rest is not important.

Same logic in wider context ...
The thing of "knowing the language" being prerequisite from both the player and listener is something Jazzers should abandon as soon as possible. ASAP. It's counterproductive. The pride some take in " ... could recognize the lines of musicians he listened to the day before the gig ...", or similar. In any other way of life, art and music, it would be recognized as not creative, even plagiarism, but Jazzers are trying to sell that as some "special" and invaluable ingredient. No way.
Not to mention that it is not true one should "know the language" to be able to enjoy Jazz, or any other form of music and art. I pretty much enjoyed Jazz just the same, maybe even more, when I was a kid knowing nothing about music, than what I enjoy it now with some info gathered. Hard to understand, ... whatever ... All BS. It is quite simple to understand Jazz is not the simplest music out there, but your guts and senses make you feel like it, or not. What language is prerequisite to feel it?

Now, hadn't I previous knowledge of Stairway to Heaven, what would I think of Zappa's band playing that solo? Guess I'll never know. What I know, the first time I've heard original I did not like it too much, but I immediately felt it was worth mocking.

I'll cut the rant. I won't go into double, or triple paradox of creativity in Jazz, Ill do it in some thread about why people hate it.

[princeplanet]

Dear Santa,

Please show me how to make the single-note playing of messrs Tyner, McLean and Shaw happen on guitar - or the reindeer gets it.

Big Jackie fan here, but never heard him sound so much like Trane, or even Wayne! Stupendous.

Tyner's quartal single line playing is kinda impossible on guitar I would think, although I do remember Don Mock having a decent go...

And yeah, I want all that for Xmas too, heck I'll even hold out for the next 20 Xmases, but if Santa doesn't bring it, do we really have to take it out on the poor reindeer?

[destinytot]

Big Jackie fan here, but never heard him sound so much like Trane, or even Wayne! Stupendous.

Tyner's quartal single line playing is kinda impossible on guitar I would think, although I do remember Don Mock having a decent go...

And yeah, I want all that for Xmas too, heck I'll even hold out for the next 20 Xmases, but if Santa doesn't bring it, do we really have to take it out on the poor reindeer?

Closed mouths don't get fed...

Don't worry - venison's off the menu, and Rudolph's safe.

Actually, Santa has come early this year. I've begun doing the work - step-by step, on a Tele Squier, with round 10s, using thumb.

[destinytot]

Lol..Tone is one thing ..and Rhythm and the ability to feel phrases is another..

I'm quite sure Kenny G could easily blow some cool David Sanborn type ( but alto ) stuff over Jazzified R&B Changes that would not be recognized by Jazzers as being Kenny G.

Obviously in the Marketplace - having a 'Unique Recognizable Style ' is more Marketable and more Rare .
Example - Larry Carlton studied with Joe Pass..had he stayed with a strictly Jazz Style - would we have ever heard of him ?

And most of the biggest Jazz Guitarists are doing some new things too ..kind of Fusion on a more Organic Level ...one foot in the Tradition..one foot out.

I think Sanborn's excellent.

[princeplanet]

Stefan Wolpe? The Serial post-Webern guy? I thought he didn't like jazz very much (I remember reading an interview with him when he said that jazz was awful, and he much preferred indian classical music.) It would be an amusing irony if he ended up influencing its development.

I'd love to hear more about his influence on Berklee jazz education and CST. Says on his Wikipedia page he taught Gil Evans and George Russell, so yeah... What an unlikely influence...



I would go further. I would say CST is not an improvisation technique at all. It’s a way of organising pitch collections in vertical musical space.

Used as an arranging an composition technique it certainly explains why so much modern film music sounds the way it does. Reactive, static, non-developmental.



Every jazz musician of the past 40 years is well versed in CST, because they mostly went to Berklee, or colleges influenced by it.



There's not a huge difference between Barry Harris's use of scales and conservative applications of CST (NEVER tell him that :-)) - and any differences there are can probably be settled by a nuanced reading of CST. It’s all in the Nettles book anyway...

BUT - the point about Barry is not the harmony but the linear development of scales into bop lines. That is an improvisation method - and there’s no reason why it shouldn’t fit hand in glove once you’ve got through the language barrier

Tristano is a missing link actually, regarding the use of the altered scale etc... I'd love to know more for the historical background



I like Kenny Wheeler - and I agree re: CST. Although some Wheeler harmony looks like disguised functionality to me… Another thread!

However - almost every jazz musician in London has studied Kenny Wheeler harmony with the same two (brilliant) teachers who teach at all the music schools, and they write harmony in the Kenny Wheeler style. As a result, I am personally at pains to avoid that approach, but it doesn't mean I dislike it (or at least not when Kenny did it..)

That said, I do find that sound world a bit over familiar now, and it's been done to death. We've had 40 years of that stuff.

The post-modal CST era of jazz is by far the longest….



If you are talking about 'play like Bill Evans' in terms of his pitch choices (probably about 25% of his artistry) - you also have to be able to construct bebop lines properly. There's a massive amount of Bud Powell in Bill's music, at least to my ears. And with Herbie...

Not so much with Jarrett, perhaps?



100%

Iverson seems to know everything about everything, and I find his writing a constant source of stimulation….. But I did find his dig against CST quite fun. TBH CST is an easy target in this regard and a favourite axe to grind for older musicians

But it’s only a reflection of changing social conditions in the music, away from a more street, vernacular conception and a more schooled, academic one

If it wasn’t CST it would be something else

Christian, I don't "like" your posts, only because I've never posted a like, ever, on anything (yeah, I'm going for the record), but but I think I've actually liked every single post I've ever read from you, and none more than this one. I know you'll think I flatter you so only because I'm in agreeance with you, but that can't be right, I'd need to know as much as you do in order to agree, wouldn't I ?

This forum has some great characters, great players, and some great theorists, but too many "teachers". This is often thought to be a good thing, but of course it isn't for the jazz novice who has his ear pulled first this way then that - choice frenzy... Might I suggest to any novice finding his way, trying to make sense of all the raging Jazz guitar debates such as the one involving this thread, that you will save years if not decades by following the path of only a selected few. If you can't find the right teacher, or you can't properly learn from just listening to your fave few players (not many can), then you are among the many here who seek the holy grail on this fine Forum.

And so I say unto thee, thou shalt not worship false prophets, thou must seek first the Bop Commandments as re told by St Christianm77, and let his Post History be your book of Revelations. Amen.

[christianm77]

Lol

[princeplanet]

hehe, you owe me a fiver geez

[christianm77]

@princeplanet, I shall not 'like' your post because that would make me rather smug

I'm really glad someone's been able to garner something from the reams of verbiage I spew out here

Also the period has stopped working on my 6 month old MacBook Pro,,,,, WTF?

[princeplanet]

@princeplanet, I shall not 'like' your post because that would make me rather smug

I'm really glad someone's been able to garner something from the reams of verbiage I spew out here

Also the period has stopped working on my 6 month old MacBook Pro,,,,, WTF?

so the reams of verbiage spewed out is blamed on the period not working? I think Kerouac had the same problem on his Remington... (my period seems to be working fine)...

[destinytot]

I see you are in humorous mood, this could be good Christmas time joke, but often I hear it said seriously.

I do not think it is something one should ask for. Do horn blowers care for recreating guitar lines? I don't think so.
There is my all time favourite of Zappa's band horn section playing the solo of Stairway To Heaven, I don't know how many of them, all in unison. It was rather hilarious experience the first tie I've heard it. It's still funny, but that's it. The original, as much as it became old, no matter how much some mock it, as complex or simple as it ever was, is still one serious, if not great rock guitar solo. Why would so many people like it if it was not?

I see no reason for guitar players to undermine and underestimate own art on own instrument.

Start the rant ...

If I wanted to play horn lines, I'd play horn. I want to play guitar lines. I want the lines I play to be all mine. Possibly nicked from someone, but in my own version, style and feel. Not really recognizable. At least played in different context with different meaning.
To digress further, I absolutely have no desire, zero, about nailing nuance of anybody's performance. There is no performance I find worth nailing. Even if I may think it was perfect, it does not mean I (completely) liked it. If I decide to play it, what I liked in it is recreated and nailed enough in my version, the rest is not important.

Same logic in wider context ...
The thing of "knowing the language" being prerequisite from both the player and listener is something Jazzers should abandon as soon as possible. ASAP. It's counterproductive. The pride some take in " ... could recognize the lines of musicians he listened to the day before the gig ...", or similar. In any other way of life, art and music, it would be recognized as not creative, even plagiarism, but Jazzers are trying to sell that as some "special" and invaluable ingredient. No way.
Not to mention that it is not true one should "know the language" to be able to enjoy Jazz, or any other form of music and art. I pretty much enjoyed Jazz just the same, maybe even more, when I was a kid knowing nothing about music, than what I enjoy it now with some info gathered. Hard to understand, ... whatever ... All BS. It is quite simple to understand Jazz is not the simplest music out there, but your guts and senses make you feel like it, or not. What language is prerequisite to feel it?

Now, hadn't I previous knowledge of Stairway to Heaven, what would I think of Zappa's band playing that solo? Guess I'll never know. What I know, the first time I've heard original I did not like it too much, but I immediately felt it was worth mocking.

I'll cut the rant. I won't go into double, or triple paradox of creativity in Jazz, Ill do it in some thread about why people hate it.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I do have criteria about what is desirable, and playing 'jazz guitar' is less important to me than playing 'jazz' on guitar.

[destinytot]

Big Jackie fan here, but never heard him sound so much like Trane, or even Wayne! Stupendous.

Tyner's quartal single line playing is kinda impossible on guitar I would think, although I do remember Don Mock having a decent go...D

And yeah, I want all that for Xmas too, heck I'll even hold out for the next 20 Xmases, but if Santa doesn't bring it, do we really have to take it out on the poor reindeer?

Sonny Greenwich

[Vladan]

Thanks for pointing that out.

I do have criteria about what is desirable, and playing 'jazz guitar' is less important to playing 'jazz' on guitar.

Without any doubt. We are in full agreement on that one.

[mr. beaumont]

Sonny Greenwich

There's a name that gets overlooked TOO much.

I don't think I've heard any guitar player "get" Coltrane's 60's concept like Sonny.

[princeplanet]

There's a name that gets overlooked TOO much.

I don't think I've heard any guitar player "get" Coltrane's 60's concept like Sonny.

What's a good record to check out?

[Vladan]

Sonny Greenwich

There's a name that gets overlooked TOO much.

I don't think I've heard any guitar player "get" Coltrane's 60's concept like Sonny.

So Mr. B, after Sharrock there's another Sonny for me to learn about?

[princeplanet]

So Mr. B, after Sharrock there's another Sonny for me to learn about?

Yeah, but only after you've checked out the Seven Sonnys of the Sax !

[destinytot]

A good one to watch*:

*those fretting fingers in action (count 'em), and Mr Bickert @2:20
EDIT also Mr Hendricks @2:00

[mr. beaumont]

Sadly, a lot of the best stuff I've heard from him is random YouTube vids...I think a lot of his records from the 70's are out of print.

At one time, a guy I know put a bunch of stuff on CD for me, but I don't think there were album titles. I'll have to go find those, I misplaced them a few months back. I'm pretty sure "Bird of Paradise", from the mid 80's (but no 80's cheese) was on there.

There's a live record, from Montreal Bistro with Kenny Wheeler that's "findable," it's on Spotify too. It's outstanding. And Outside In, with Paul Bley, is great too.

[princeplanet]

Sadly, a lot of the best stuff I've heard from him is random YouTube vids...I think a lot of his records from the 70's are out of print.

At one time, a guy I know put a bunch of stuff on CD for me, but I don't think there were album titles. I'll have to go find those, I misplaced them a few months back. I'm pretty sure "Bird of Paradise", from the mid 80's (but no 80's cheese) was on there.

There's a live record, from Montreal Bistro with Kenny Wheeler that's "findable," it's on Spotify too. It's outstanding. And Outside In, with Paul Bley, is great too.

Checked out some of the studio stuff on Spotify, but it sounded a little tamer than what I was expecting, so will look for the live tubes. Cheers.

[princeplanet]

A good one to watch*:

*those fretting fingers in action (count 'em), and Mr Bickert @2:20

yeah cool, 3 stretchy fingers, lotsa 2 note per string pentatonics (not so many stacked 4th), but still a bit Tynerish, for sure.

[mr. beaumont]

[destinytot]

yeah cool, 3 stretchy fingers, lotsa 2 note per string pentatonics (not so many stacked 4th), but still a bit Tynerish, for sure.

I glean a lot from that video. (YMMV, of course.)

It places within my ZPD a glimmer of what is otherwise so elusive as to be practically impossible.

And I take encouragement from the results of my modest efforts at 'transcribing', which augur well for future satisfaction from the pursuit of (not reindeer but) 'jazz'.

[princeplanet]

Remember kids, say no to venison this Xmas

[destinytot]

Remember kids, say no to venison this Xmas

i think that ship has sailed; I ate Bambi last winter.