Half-Whole or Whole-Half Diminished Scale?

[Bruce Kiely]

Hey, all ...

Love the diminished sound, know my horizontal and vertical fingerings, but here is the question ...

Do you use the whole tone, half tone diminished scale? Or the half tone, whole tone version? Or both (if both, what decides one over the other in a given situation or context)?

Thanks in advance ...
BK

[PMB]

The basic answer is use W/H for diminished chords and H/W for altered chords. Where the confusion arises is that a 7b9 chord is often played without its root, leaving a diminished seventh chord. So, for instance, a turnaround progression may be written as either | F6 F#o7 | G-7 C7 | or | F6 D7b9 | G-7 C7 |. A guitarist often plays identical shapes for F#o7 and D7b9 - the only difference between them is that D7b9 suggests a root D that is often supplied by a bass player or some other instrument.

To make the relationship clearer, let's transpose the F#o7 down so that it lies closer to the D7b9. You probably know that the diminished scale is symmetrical and repeats itself at the interval of a minor 3rd. Therefore, F#o7(Gbo7) = Ebo7. Compare the scales for D7b9 and Ebo7 and you'll see that they contain exactly the same notes (I've purposefully used the same spellings for ease of apprehension):

D7b9 = D, Eb, F, F#, G#, A, B, C (H/W)
Ebo7 = Eb, F, F#, G#, A, B, C, D (W/H)

Diminished chords are often disguised dominant chords as in the turnaround example. There are also cases where they have a less obvious cadential function and act more as a passing chord, e.g. bIII and #IV diminished chords. Again, use W/H for these chords:

A-7 Abo7 | G-7 C7 |
Bb7 Bo7 | F6/C / |

[Thumpalumpacus]

Simpleton that I am, I simply stack minor thirds and wander through both.

[PMB]

Simpleton that I am, I simply stack minor thirds and wander through both.

Well, that's a good start, Thump (never know what you might find along the way)!

Diminished scales can be really hard to get a handle on due to their symmetrical construction. I remember having something of a breakthrough when I realised that the W/H was made up from the first 4 notes of a minor scale - for instance, C, D, Eb, F - followed by the first 4 notes of a minor scale a tritone away - F#, G#, A, B. The real clincher was discovering that the diminished scale yielded every major and minor triad placed a minor 3rd apart:

C, D, Eb, F, F#, G#, A, B contains:

D major (D, F#, A)
D minor (D, F, A)

F Major (F, A, C)
F Minor (F, Ab/G#, C)

Ab Major (Ab, C, Eb)
Ab Minor (Ab, Cb/B, Eb)

B Major (B, D#/Eb, F#)
B Minor (B, D, F#)

[Thumpalumpacus]

Well, that's a good start, Thump (never know what you might find along the way)!

Diminished scales can be really hard to get a handle on due to their symmetrical construction. I remember having something of a breakthrough when I realised that the W/H was made up from the first 4 notes of a minor scale - for instance, C, D, Eb, F - followed by the first 4 notes of a minor scale a tritone away - F#, G#, A, B. The real clincher was discovering that the diminished scale yielded every major and minor triad placed a minor 3rd apart:

C, D, Eb, F, F#, G#, A, B contains:

D major (D, F#, A)
D minor (D, F, A)

F Major (F, A, C)
F Minor (F, Ab/G#, C)

Ab Major (Ab, C, Eb)
Ab Minor (Ab, Cb/B, Eb)

B Major (B, D#/Eb, F#)
B Minor (B, D, F#)

Sometime in the last few years, it occurred to me that both m7b5 and dom7 chords can be substituted a tritone away, and though I'm not a bookish sort, it seems to me because each chord contains a tritone already, which "flips" as you slide it up or down. Not a perfect substitution, but functionally it works. It seems to me we're probably hearing something similar, but unlike you I lack the conceptual grasp.

I'm bookmarking this post for study with that in mind -- I'm cooking dinner and don't have a guitar to hand -- and I sure appreciate you taking the time to lay this out for me. Thank you so much!

[wolflen]

PMB...I have a breakdown of the many chords found in the diminished scale (do a search for my posts) some being 7b5 7#9 13b5 13b9 and 7b9 and more..and they all can be moved a minor third..then push harder and place a min ii7 or mi7b5 in front of them..its quite a journey

and your major and minor triads can be extended to dom and min 7ths

btw..one thing I stress is there are only THREE dim scales C Db D...many think there are two different dim scales..but not true..the C dim scale starting on a B note is still the same C dim scale but it starts on a B .. why call it something else..as I have noted before a G Maj scale starting on F# is a G Maj scale not a F# scale..scales/theory/fingerings are difficult enough..why make them more so..

[Guitarzen]

The real clincher was discovering that the diminished scale yielded every major and minor triad placed a minor 3rd apart:

C, D, Eb, F, F#, G#, A, B contains:

D major (D, F#, A)
D minor (D, F, A)

F Major (F, A, C)
F Minor (F, Ab/G#, C)

Ab Major (Ab, C, Eb)
Ab Minor (Ab, Cb/B, Eb)

B Major (B, D#/Eb, F#)
B Minor (B, D, F#)

Holy crap I never noticed that! lol! I feel a weekend of obsessing on the diminished scale coming up....That just seems to open up so many possibilities.

[PMB]

PMB...I have a breakdown of the many chords found in the diminished scale (do a search for my posts) some being 7b5 7#9 13b5 13b9 and 7b9 and more..and they all can be moved a minor third..then push harder and place a min ii7 or mi7b5 in front of them..its quite a journey

and your major and minor triads can be extended to dom and min 7ths

btw..one thing I stress is there are only THREE dim scales C Db D...many think there are two different dim scales..but not true..the C dim scale starting on a B note is still the same C dim scale but it starts on a B .. why call it something else..as I have noted before a G Maj scale starting on F# is a G Maj scale not a F# scale..scales/theory/fingerings are difficult enough..why make them more so..

Sure, wolflen, I'm aware of and use all those harmonic extensions. Just thought for anyone new to diminished scales and harmony, it might help to get started with triads. That was an early insight for me before going deeper.

[PMB]

Holy crap I never noticed that! lol! I feel a weekend of obsessing on the diminished scale coming up....That just seems to open up so many possibilities.

Sure does. Following on from Wolflen's post, what blew my mind was finding that any diminished 7th chord can act as a four-way interchange, harmonically speaking. That's because D7b9 (F#o7) shares the same notes as F7b9, Ab7b9, and B7b9. That will really keep you occupied for a while, Guitarzen!

[PMB]

Sometime in the last few years, it occurred to me that both m7b5 and dom7 chords can be substituted a tritone away, and though I'm not a bookish sort, it seems to me because each chord contains a tritone already, which "flips" as you slide it up or down. Not a perfect substitution, but functionally it works. It seems to me we're probably hearing something similar, but unlike you I lack the conceptual grasp.

I'm bookmarking this post for study with that in mind -- I'm cooking dinner and don't have a guitar to hand -- and I sure appreciate you taking the time to lay this out for me. Thank you so much!

No trouble. You've got the concept exactly. It's all to do with the exchange of function within the tritone - 3rds become 7ths and vice versa.

[Guitarzen]

Sure does. Following on from Wolflen's post, what blew my mind was finding that any diminished 7th chord can act as a four-way interchange, harmonically speaking. That's because D7b9 (F#o7) shares the same notes as F7b9, Ab7b9, and B7b9. That will really keep you occupied for a while, Guitarzen!

Yeah haha, I knew about the 4 way dom7 connection, just never bothered really to harmonize the scale and look for other cool chord relationships!

[princeplanet]

Hey, I've asked this elsewhere, but I'll ask again here if it's oK. What do you guys think of Playing the HW dim scale against V7b9 in a minor key? Obviously I'm talking about the nat 13 as opposed to the more obvious b13......

[Guitarzen]

Hey, I've asked this elsewhere, but I'll ask again here if it's oK. What do you guys think of Playing the HW dim scale against V7b9 in a minor key? Obviously I'm talking about the nat 13 as opposed to the more obvious b13......

It's pretty commonly used, I think... I like it and have always used it. There are a lot of different approaches to dominant chords, I try to use them all for variety. I like referring to dominants as the "magic chord" because you can get away with pretty much anything over them. I'm not sure that the "pros" would agree with this, but I would guess as the accompanist, it *might* be better to avoid playing certain voicings that would pigeonhole someone into only one scale choice. Leaving it more open to interpretation and giving the soloist the ability to play whatever sound they want over the dom7 chord seems like a better approach to me. I mean let's see...I know that H/W, harmonic minor, a couple diff modes of the melodic minor, and whole-tone are very viable over various forms of the dominant, probably some I forgot or never learned. So as the accompanist, why not play a simple voicing, e.g. just the 3rd and 7th, so the soloist can choose any or ALL of those scales to create his ideas with? Something to think about.

[matt.guitarteacher]

C Db D...many think there are two different dim scales..but not true..the C dim scale starting on a B note is still the same C dim scale but it starts on a B .. why call it something else..as I have noted before a G Maj scale starting on F# is a G Maj scale not a F# scale..scales/theory/fingerings are difficult enough..why make them more so..

Wolfen, I found this very interesting the last time you posted it. I'm actually curious as well about the convention of naming this scale this way. When you start looking at it, you get clues, but it would appear to maybe just be a naming issue?

First, you can't call it the 7th mode diminished, because they aren't 7 note scales. Calling it the 8th mode of diminished seems contrived as well. "Leading tone of diminished" makes a lot of sense, but technically it doesn't really "function" that way in the traditional sense. Naming it HW may simply be one of the "best" options among other bad choices for shorthand.

Regardless, you're explanation for how to look at it is very valuable. Thanks for the insight.

[PMB]

Hey, I've asked this elsewhere, but I'll ask again here if it's oK. What do you guys think of Playing the HW dim scale against V7b9 in a minor key? Obviously I'm talking about the nat 13 as opposed to the more obvious b13......

It's more modern but sounds fine to me. If an accompanist was obviously adding the b13 to their V7b9, you might move elsewhere. Of course, the♮13 functions as the♮2 of the related iim7b5 chord and the locrian♮2 is a standard alternative to the regular locrian mode. Given the interchangeability between those two chords in a ii-V context, it's inevitable that the♮13 will find its way in there quite regularly.

[JonR]

Hey, I've asked this elsewhere, but I'll ask again here if it's oK. What do you guys think of Playing the HW dim scale against V7b9 in a minor key? Obviously I'm talking about the nat 13 as opposed to the more obvious b13......

It's the standard convention. Of course the nat 13 seems out of place in the key context - but then what about the #1? G HW dim in key of C minor contains C# in place of C, as well as E natural.

I see those notes (in the first instance) as chromatic approaches. C# and E resolve up to E and F - on the G7 chord itself. They perform the same function on the vii chord, Bdim7.

IOW, the whole idea of the WH dim scale is an invention to provide notes that sound good against the dim7 chord. Nothing to do with the context in which the chord might be used. Notes a half-step below chord tones (or a whole step above) sound good in a way that notes a half-step above don't (when added to the chord as extensions). So you can treat the other 4 notes in the WH dim scale as potential extensions (whole step above chord tones) or chromatic approaches (half-step below). One of those in-between notes will be the root of the V7 chord with the same function.

But of course the whole point of both chords (regardless of scale) is tension to resolve to the next chord. From that perspective, the C# and E in the scale can join up with the Ab to form a minor triad a half-step above the tonic minor. So you can use a nice half-step descent from any of those on to the tonic chord tones. (Just a few of the many half-step resolutions the scale offers.)

[matt.guitarteacher]

It's the standard convention. Of course the nat 13 seems out of place in the key context - but then what about the #1? G HW dim in key of C minor contains C# in place of C, as well as E natural.

I see those notes (in the first instance) as chromatic approaches. C# and E resolve up to E and F - on the G7 chord itself. They perform the same function on the vii chord, Bdim7.

IOW, the whole idea of the WH dim scale is an invention to provide notes that sound good against the dim7 chord. Nothing to do with the context in which the chord might be used. Notes a half-step below chord tones (or a whole step above) sound good in a way that notes a half-step above don't (when added to the chord as extensions). So you can treat the other 4 notes in the WH dim scale as potential extensions (whole step above chord tones) or chromatic approaches (half-step below). One of those in-between notes will be the root of the V7 chord with the same function.

But of course the whole point of both chords (regardless of scale) is tension to resolve to the next chord. From that perspective, the C# and E in the scale can join up with the Ab to form a minor triad a half-step above the tonic minor. So you can use a nice half-step descent from any of those on to the tonic chord tones. (Just a few of the many half-step resolutions the scale offers.)

Very sensible. Thanks.

[princeplanet]

It's more modern but sounds fine to me. If an accompanist was obviously adding the b13 to their V7b9, you might move elsewhere. Of course, the♮13 functions as the♮2 of the related iim7b5 chord and the locrian♮2 is a standard alternative to the regular locrian mode. Given the interchangeability between those two chords in a ii-V context, it's inevitable that the♮13 will find its way in there quite regularly.

Yeah, nat 2 locrian helps set up the sound for sure.

Not sure you saw this in one of my musings from a while back, but below is the basic dim arp with an added note to create a dim pentatonic. If you just play the 1st one up a m3rd each time, you get all 4 variations, but with the same fingering! Of course the symmetrical games don't end there (eg-playing each pentatonic in the same position yields 3 more movable fingerings). Hours of fun....

- Diminished pent against V7b9 - 4 identical patterns each yielding diff added note -


.......E7b9.............. E7b9#9...........E7b9b5...........E13b9

- B D E F Ab .......D F G Ab B......F Ab Bb B D .. Ab B C# D F

[PMB]

...and of course, it works for chords as well.

[princeplanet]

...and of course, it works for chords as well.

Nice one! Did you make that yourself?

[PMB]

Nice one! Did you make that yourself?

Yeah, just about everything I put up here is mine. I was aware of the relationship you pointed out between the b9 variants but put that example together after reading your post. Thanks for the reminder - I must use it on the gig tomorrow night!

[princeplanet]

Yeah, just about everything I put up here is mine. I was aware of the relationship you pointed out between the b9 variants but put that example together after reading your post. Thanks for the reminder - I must use it on the gig tomorrow night!

And then there's the other notes you add, the first 2 examples obviously more useful than the 2nd 2 !

.....E7b9 11.......... E7b9b13...........E7b9#7..........E13b9(with nat 9*) *ok as a scale, bit weird as a chord!
.
- B D F Ab A .......D FAb B C........F Ab B D Eb ..... Ab B D F Gb


BTW, regardless of whether we're in a major or minor key, it seems we can play either, the V7b9b13, or the V713b9. I'm betting the b13 version is way more common/popular? I'm thinking to concentrate more on ideas around the b13 version myself, even knowing that the only useful inversion in the V7b9 11.

Apart from missing out on the cool inversions of the first example (with nat 13), in your opinion, would I be missing much if I'm a b13 kinda guy?

[PMB]

Depends if you're superstitious or not. Living all the time in Flat 13 could bring you bad luck...

[Thumpalumpacus]

...and of course, it works for chords as well.

That was pretty much my discovery a couple of years ago, sans the b9 -- on a whim in a blues, slid an E7 up by tritones, one per beat, and found the tension going sky-high begging for an Amin7 resolution.

[princeplanet]

Depends if you're superstitious or not. Living all the time in Flat 13 could bring you bad luck...

Hehe... but seriously for a sec, how often would you use either as an extension to b9? Especially where you're free to choose either one? Certainly from transcribing bop and hard bop, I'm finding it's most often b13. Nat 13 is usually without the b9.... Maybe I'm wrong??