What's the purpose of a 5 in a Chord?

[bobsguitars09]

When you do shell voicings you take the 5th out because the "important" tones are the 3 and 7

and what are you losing with no 5th?

and how important is the 1 when playing solo?

and when is it appropriate and also not appropriate to just use dyads 3 and 7

[KirkP]

When a string vibrates, the SECOND harmonic is an octave above the fundamental. The THIRD harmonic is a fifth above that. In other words, when you play a root the fifth is already there (although an octave higher). Adding yet another 5th to the chord adds nothing to the harmony. Exception: if it's a flatted or sharped 5th it does become important to the harmony.
(Edit: I forgot that the fundamental tone is called the first harmonic. The correction is in all caps.)

[NoReply]

Here it is with all the details understanding this you start to understand guitar tuning also and why things like Feiten tuning system and similar one exist. Here's Miles explaining tuning and harmonics.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

If you're playing with a bass he's got the root and fifth covered.

If you are playing solo, that's now your job!

[vintagelove]

It "thickens" a chord.


Not to sound like an a@@, you could just play a chord, then take away the 5th and see how you interpret it.


Best wishes,

[Binyomin]

When a string vibrates, the first harmonic is an octave above the fundamental. The second harmonic is a fifth above that. In other words, when you play a root the fifth is already there (although an octave higher). Adding yet another 5th to the chord adds nothing to the harmony...

I've never seen this explanation. You eventually get the third and the seventh (and other tones) in the harmonic series also, but they are too faint to make a difference?

[Dave70]

KirkP kind of beat me to it, but I was going to say "...to be altered!"

And I agree with BDLH too if you're playing solo, you can use it (along with the root) for bass lines/rhythmic purposes to fatten up the sound.

Listen to some Lenny Breau for hip dyad usage!

[TH]

and what are you losing with no 5th?

and how important is the 1 when playing solo?

and when is it appropriate and also not appropriate to just use dyads 3 and 7

The question of when it's appropriate to use a note is one many people can give advice on...to get a certain sound. There are conventional sounds, there are modern sounds, there are traditional sounds. There is your sound.

For all the time you spend on questions and answers pertaining to the rationale of sound, don't forget to explore the sound fully; without bandwidth from others.
Explore the sounds of the notes, answer the question of what the 5th does, and answer it yourself. That will be based on who you are and what you hear now. Your sound vocabulary will evolve and it may very well be different from the way someone else hears.
It's fine to ask advice but don't cheat yourself out of the truth of what you can answer yourself. Shell voicings, a sound. The fifth and root, just sounds. Your choice of what sounds describe what you want to convey, music.
Keep your obligation to discover in perspective to the convenience of questions and answers.
My two cents.
Good luck
David

[matt.guitarteacher]

The real answer to the initial question has to do with the ancient roots of Western music more than anything to do with jazz. Look at choral music , where all the stuff originated.

Basically, stacked thirds are pretty and easy to sing. The other parts are easier to sing if one of them is singing the fifth . You didn't have a lot of seventh chords back then either. So it just added to the harmony.

Singing in perfect fourths or fifths was probably the thing before thirds, anyway. I'm not a scholar, and I'm not going to look it up. But that's what I remember from the ancient chants etc.

Fast forward a few hundred years, and things are a little different . But still, the fifth is pretty important to all of Western music in terms of tertian harmony. In jazz, it's hard to play 13th chords AND play every note, physically on instruments.

So, a lot of thought goes in to playing jazz harmony, with regard to "what's okay to leave out". Fifth is usually the first thing, especially if you're not doing something altered or whatever. But understand that the fifth is always there, implied , in the larger pool of notes, by everything else that's going on.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I blame the monks. Not Thelonius, the other guys.

[Jim Soloway]

There are lots of times when a 5th can be dropped with no noticeable loss but there are also times when keeping the 5th in a chord can make a profound and wonderful difference. Try this one.

5-7-4-6-4-4 (use a barre at the 4th fret). In order it includes the 1-5-6(13)-3-#11-maj7 and it's dense but beautiful chord.

[NoReply]

I blame the monks. Not Thelonius, the other guys.

I forgive them as long as they bring some Brandy.

[christianm77]

The real answer to the initial question has to do with the ancient roots of Western music more than anything to do with jazz. Look at choral music , where all the stuff originated.

Basically, stacked thirds are pretty and easy to sing. The other parts are easier to sing if one of them is singing the fifth . You didn't have a lot of seventh chords back then either. So it just added to the harmony.

Singing in perfect fourths or fifths was probably the thing before thirds, anyway. I'm not a scholar, and I'm not going to look it up. But that's what I remember from the ancient chants etc.

Fast forward a few hundred years, and things are a little different . But still, the fifth is pretty important to all of Western music in terms of tertian harmony. In jazz, it's hard to play 13th chords AND play every note, physically on instruments.

So, a lot of thought goes in to playing jazz harmony, with regard to "what's okay to leave out". Fifth is usually the first thing, especially if you're not doing something altered or whatever. But understand that the fifth is always there, implied , in the larger pool of notes, by everything else that's going on.

Yeah you are basically right. The perfect fourth and fifth were considered the only consonant intervals, a little later, the major third gained acceptance (which is why minor pieces often ended on major in the 16th century) and finally, the minor third became an acceptable consonance.

Now of course we play all sorts of added note diatonic major and minor chords as consonances in jazz, and in contemporary classic music.

Tertial harmony started to catch on in Europe during the 15th century - English singers were particularly noted for singing in parallel thirds and sixths and this was called Fauxbourdon or 'le contenance angloise' - it became the stylistic model for the Burgundian composers in the later 100 years war such as Dufay, and from then on a big influence on the Renaissance.

The use of consecutive or parallel fifths went out of fashion for around 500 years :-)

[orri]

it's totally up to you.

if you like the sound of a voicing with a fifth, use it.
if you like the sound of a fifth (or a line with a fifth) in a solo, play it.
If you think it sounds better to avoid the fifth, avoid the fifth.


I can assign you some home work so you can figure it out for yourself:
part 1
- choose a song to comp and don't use the fifth in any voicing
- reflect
- repeat with the fifth in all voicings
- reflect
- repeat with a mixture of voicings with or without fifth.
- reflect

part 2
- choose chord changes (can use the same as part 1) and improvice a solo without playing the fifth of any chord (in the changes)
- reflect

[KirkP]

I've never seen this explanation. You eventually get the third and the seventh (and other tones) in the harmonic series also, but they are too faint to make a difference?

I don't have a reference for the harmonic series explanation, but it makes sense to me from a physics/engineering viewpoint. The octaves and fifths are much higher amplitude than other chord tones if a string is plucked normally.
I agree with folks that say use of fifths should be guided by your ear. Often, playing the fifth (or an octave) in a chord can be musically effective, even though from a harmonic series viewpoint they are redundant.
But if you need to prioritize notes in a chord, the 3rd, 7th, and altered 5ths (if any) are the ones that provide the tension and release that drive the changes forward.
(BTW, I corrected an error in my numbering of harmonics in my first post.)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

There are lots of times when a 5th can be dropped with no noticeable loss but there are also times when keeping the 5th in a chord can make a profound a wonderful difference. Try this one.

5-7-4-6-4-4 (use a barre at the 4th fret). In order it includes the 1-5-6(13)-3-#11-maj7 and it's dense but beautiful chord.

Tasty chord. Good example of the fifth as "filler" to make a fatter chord.

[KirkP]

...
and how important is the 1 when playing solo?

and when is it appropriate and also not appropriate to just use dyads 3 and 7

For solo playing, I'd say root needs to be played for most chords unless the listener can be induced to hear the root without actually playing it.

For example, the second time through a chord progression you've programmed the listener to expect a certain root progression, so you might be able to drop roots for a while, relying on the listener to imagine the roots you haven't supplied. A strong melody might also imply the root. A sophisticated listener will be more tolerant of missing roots than the average listener, so don't overuse this.
Try recording rootless guide tones under a melody and decide for yourself how long you like to hear that before you feel a need to hear a root.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

For solo playing, I'd say root needs to be played for most chords unless the listener can be induced to hear the root without actually playing it.

For example, the second time through a chord progression you've programmed the listener to expect a certain root progression, so you might be able to drop roots for a while, relying on the listener to imagine the roots you haven't supplied. A strong melody might also imply the root. A sophisticated listener will be more tolerant of missing roots than the average listener, so don't overuse this.
Try recording rootless guide tones under a melody and decide for yourself how long you like to hear that before you feel a need to hear a root.

It also depends on how long the chord lasts. I'll Remember April starts with 4 bars of G major then 4 bars of G minor. That's a lot of Gs!

[KirkP]

It also depends on how long the chord lasts. I'll Remember April starts with 4 bars of G major then 4 bars of G minor. That's a lot of Gs!

If a chord is repeated with a different voicing or extensions moved around I don't think one needs to repeat the root. But typically on this tune I think the root is repeated many times over the first 8 bars.

[fritz jones]

the fifth is important if it is a melody note, eg the beginning of Darn that Dream or Summertime.
everyone plays drop 3 voicings with the fifth as the high note.

[Jim Soloway]

the fifth is important if it is a melody note, eg the beginning of Darn that Dream or Summertime.
everyone plays drop 3 voicings with the fifth as the high note.

The 5th can also be important as a replacement for the root as the bottom note of the chord to extend the size or overall spread of the chord.

[KirkP]

The true purpose of the 5th is to give the bass player something to play other than roots.

[TH]

The true purpose of the 5th is to give the bass player something to play other than roots.

Tell a country player the root is dispensable.
David