Learning the notes within chords

[Spakryan]

Hi,
I guess first of all I am semi-new to this forum, so hi everyone! I had another account a few years back when I was studying Jazz at Uni but due to personal reasons had defer from my studies. Getting back into it now I am going through a lot of refreshment stages with areas of my playing especially theory.

My question is to you guys -
1. How did you learn each note within a chord?

2. Do you see key signatures in your head and the add or subtract tones for different chord qualities OR is it purely visual from the fretboard to your eyes as to what notes belong in a chord by visualizing arpeggios or chord forms.

3. Did you find any exercises that were helpful in getting these in your head so that you could recall the notes easily with or without a guitar in your hands.


I am interested in hearing more from guitarists who don't play any other instruments for their journey but welcome input from anyone.

Thanks in advance!


Mitch

[Spakryan]

Also I want to say that I am very familiar all the notes on the fretboard, Just wanting to see where your brain goes to when thinking of notes within the chord and ways to train and speed up the thought process

[JonR]

Hi,
I guess first of all I am semi-new to this forum, so hi everyone! I had another account a few years back when I was studying Jazz at Uni but due to personal reasons had defer from my studies. Getting back into it now I am going through a lot of refreshment stages with areas of my playing especially theory.

My question is to you guys -
1. How did you learn each note within a chord?

It was way back at the beginning, and I think it came from knowing notes to begin with. I could read music (learned in school) before I decided to become a musician. When I got a guitar, I learned from a book that used standard notation. So it was natural to see the individual notes in each chord as I played them.
Of course, that was all in open position - beginning with the C major scale notes, seeing how the chords in that key employed different sets of notes from the scale, and contained the scale within and around them. Then probably G major, D major, all the common folk/rock guitar keys.
I taught myself everything beyond that, working my way up the fretboard, counting notes, working out chord shapes. (What some people today call the "CAGED system", but I just saw it as the way the fretboard is.)
And learning songs from songbooks which only showed notation and chord symbols - so I had to work out how to play them. (I did have a chord dictionary at one time, for the more complicated chords, but it soon became clear how chord structures and extensions worked, so I then knew how to build any chord from scratch.)

2. Do you see key signatures in your head and the add or subtract tones for different chord qualities OR is it purely visual from the fretboard to your eyes as to what notes belong in a chord by visualizing arpeggios or chord forms.

I don't "see key signatures" in my head. That's just a form of notation.
While I know all the notes involved, that's kind of in the back of my mind (something that's there ready in case I need to talk about it). The immediate conscious process is a combination of pattern (shape) and finger memory.

When I see a piece of new music - say, a lead sheet with notated melody and chord symbols - I can translate the symbols to shapes anywhere on the neck in a few seconds. I.e., I know all the shapes already, it's only speed of finger movement that takes the time to get them in place. (I'm slowed down by my technique, not my knowledge!)
I can't play the melody quite as quickly as that. I can't sight read as quick as a pro. But with a couple of runs at it, I could play the tune. But just reading the melody, I'd understand how it fitted the chords - which chord tones it used, whether it contained extensions or alterations to the chords. I'd be able to play the melody in various neck positions. (Reading tab is much slower for me.)

When it comes to improvisation, therefore, the material is all there - in the chord shapes on the fretboard (all over the fretboard), with the melody kind of marking a guide path through them. I don't think of scales, or "apply" scales. I don't really think of note names either, although - as I say - they're there in the back of mind all the time. What I think about mostly is melodic shape (melodic intervals and rhythm), and the relation of each note to the current chord root. The relation of each note to the key (tonic) is often relevant too, but it can vary from foreground to background, depending on the context. That's all still largely subconscious, in that I'm not aware of making decisions on every note, unless I'm playing long slow notes.

3. Did you find any exercises that were helpful in getting these in your head so that you could recall the notes easily with or without a guitar in your hands.

Well, ideally, you'd do it with a guitar in your hands!
But I understand one can't always do that. There are the hours you may have in a day job, or doing other things away from the guitar.
I guess you can visualise chord shapes, putting your hand into those shapes maybe, and work out connecting voicings along the fretboard. If you can't visualise your fretboard well enough from memory, you could have blank fretboard printouts, and plot chord shapes and moves that way.

[kevets]

This is something you can also practice away from the guitar. Every kind of A chord contains some flavor of A C E. Key of A has 3sharps, f c and g. So A major is A C# E. Add the 7th. Drill yourself (I'm using flash cards) on major, minor, dominant, half diminished. You'll get pretty fast at verbalizing chords.

On the guitar, learn all triads. But pay attention to where the root, 3 and 5 are. Learn to recognize the inverse interval like a major 3 is a minor 6 inverse.

This is still a work in progress for me. I try to spend some of my practice time holding a chord and naming the notes, playing it as an arp in scale degree order. Or if I'm figuring out a chord melody voicing, I'll just figure it out rather than relying on my memory of shapes. Whenever I do that I please myself with some unusual but nice voicings.

[destinytot]

Personally, I don't play the piano - but I use one as a tool for reference and study.

I hear/think ('sing' mentally) numbers: '1' as root, upwards to '3', '5', and upwards further for '6'. I think up or down for '7' and 'b7'.

I also use numbers to hear/think extensions or alterations of chords, and chromatic solfège syllables to identify pitches in relation to a given root.

[destinytot]

Repost - made for another thread, but hope it's helpful:
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/jazzg...tml#post627466

[joe2758]

it's all numbers for me: I find the key/tonal center of a section and locate my "one" chord, then from there I'm thinking VI7 chord ii chord whatever. the single notes are in relation to the chord of the moment, usually a mix between solfege and numbers. *shrug*

[Nate Miller]

how do I know? I can spell chords like nobody's business. you can do it too. This is something Jack Petersen made us do when I studied with him at North Texas. Note that I said "made" us do because this is not a pleasant task, but if you do it, within the next 12 days you will be able to spell chords like a bat out of hell.

first, list the basic 7th chords...

maj7, min7, Dom7, half dim7, dim7, aug7

now first we start with C. We are going to spell all those types of 7th chords with C as the tonic.

C E G B
C Eb G Bb
C E G Bb
C Eb Gb Bb
C Eb Gb Bbb
C E G# Bb

now spell those same chords up from the third

E G B C ...(and so on)

Then from the 5th

G E B C ...(etc.)

and finally from the 7th

B C E G ...(and the rest)

then tomorrow do that all again from Db. The following day do it all again in D

and keep doing that for 12 days until you have done all 12 keys. If you reall want to get your money's worth you will do both C# and Db, but if you only want to do one, do the flat key.

when you write this down on paper by hand you remember it better. That's why we all used to take notes with pen and paper in school.

do that and in 12 days you'll be a chord spelling mofo and you'll never have to repeat that exercise the rest of your life.

[destinytot]

how do I know? I can spell chords like nobody's business. you can do it too. This is something Jack Petersen made us do when I studied with him at North Texas. Note that I said "made" us do because this is not a pleasant task, but if you do it, within the next 12 days you will be able to spell chords like a bat out of hell.

first, list the basic 7th chords...

maj7, min7, Dom7, half dim7, dim7, aug7

now first we start with C. We are going to spell all those types of 7th chords with C as the tonic.

C E G B
C Eb G Bb
C E G Bb
C Eb Gb Bb
C Eb Gb Bbb
C E G# Bb

now spell those same chords up from the third

E G B C ...(and so on)

Then from the 5th

G E B C ...(etc.)

and finally from the 7th

B C E G ...(and the rest)

then tomorrow do that all again from Db. The following day do it all again in D

and keep doing that for 12 days until you have done all 12 keys. If you reall want to get your money's worth you will do both C# and Db, but if you only want to do one, do the flat key.

when you write this down on paper by hand you remember it better. That's why we all used to take notes with pen and paper in school.

do that and in 12 days you'll be a chord spelling mofo and you'll never have to repeat that exercise the rest of your life.

Like learning verb tables and noun declensions... love it - thanks!

I'm curious to know who Jack Peterson was, Nate, and also Stan (mentioned in one of your recent posts - could that be Stan Kenton?). Would you mind saying a little more, please? This stuff really inspires me to learn - please keep it coming!

[Nate Miller]

I'm curious to know who Jack Peterson was, Nate, and also Stan (mentioned in one of your recent posts - could that be Stan Kenton?). Would you mind saying a little more, please? This stuff really inspires me to learn - please keep it coming!

Jack Petersen was the guitar instructor at North Texas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Petersen_(guitarist)

That's his Wikipedia page. Jack wasn't around during the internet age, but he was one of the first jazz educators. What was great about studying with Jack was that he had the guitar figured out and he wanted to help you to figure it out. He didn't try to tell you what to play, just how a guitar works.

I believe he taught John Abercrombie, but I don't know that first hand.

Stan is another story. Stan Willis was a bebop piano player I knew in Anchorage in the 80s. Stan liked me and I got to play with him, but I also got invited over to his house for music lessons. I posted something about what lessons with Stan were like in the "everything else" section a few weeks ago when I first started hanging around.

Stan played with Art Farmer in San Francisco back in the 50s. Stan never got famous. He died before the internet era, so there is nothing about him on the web. The only person outside of the guys I knew in Anchorage that had ever heard of Stan was Reg right here on the forum. I was glad to hear that there were some other guys who remembered Stan because he sure was something else.

[Al_F]

During day, I'll mentally recite notes in chord, walk through all chords in a key e.g. 'cegb' etc. When have a guitar in my hand, when learn new chord will spot out the notes or if working on improv stuff visualize the chord tone and shapes on the neck in the position I'm playing

[destinytot]

Jack Petersen was the guitar instructor at North Texas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Petersen_(guitarist)

That's his Wikipedia page. Jack wasn't around during the internet age, but he was one of the first jazz educators. What was great about studying with Jack was that he had the guitar figured out and he wanted to help you to figure it out. He didn't try to tell you what to play, just how a guitar works.

I believe he taught John Abercrombie, but I don't know that first hand.

Stan is another story. Stan Willis was a bebop piano player I knew in Anchorage in the 80s. Stan liked me and I got to play with him, but I also got invited over to his house for music lessons. I posted something about what lessons with Stan were like in the "everything else" section a few weeks ago when I first started hanging around.

Stan played with Art Farmer in San Francisco back in the 50s. Stan never got famous. He died before the internet era, so there is nothing about him on the web. The only person outside of the guys I knew in Anchorage that had ever heard of Stan was Reg right here on the forum. I was glad to hear that there were some other guys who remembered Stan because he sure was something else.

Really wonderful to read - thanks very much indeed!

[JonR]

^ The past is not a sofa but a springboard.


My past is a ripped up old sofa with the rusty old springs poking through. Does that count?

[Spakryan]

Some great reply's and views there, thank a lot!

Nate - I really like this idea. I think I'm going to start with this and go from there. It's exactly the area I want to work on so that my brain doesn't default to just playing 'grips' and even though as I mentioned earlier I can easily work out notes under my fingers at a decent rate, it's that instant recall I'm working toward. The same way you get when you sight read and you instantly identify a note on the staff for what it is. I want that recall in my head for chords without neccessarily any visual prompts.


JonR - Great reply Jon, It's always really interesting to me to see other players' approach and journey in these areas.


Destinytot - Thanks for the insight and on a side note you've now convinced me to revisit some solfege again, if only to assist in my ear training. I've recently read your thread dated end of January where you were going to leave the forums. Glad you stayed! From what I've seen you're a valued member and very insightful.

I think at the end of the day it's just going to boil down to repetition.

All replies were much appreciated


Mitch

[Spakryan]

I did reply but seems as if it's not showing up. I wont repeat myself in case it does but I just want to say thanks to all the replies.

Nate - I am going to start with your daily chord spelling- Very logical and structured way to work through this area.
As with anything, this will come back to repetition to secure my ability to recall the at any given time or place.


Thanks again for the insight to what you guys are doing and your processes.

Mitch

[Zmann]

I also studied with Stan in the late 70's, I left Anchorage in 1980. It's a joy to see his name mentioned. Thanks for the post. Stan was a dear friend.

[Desm0nd]

First of all, I dont know all the notes within all chords but I am trying to get there my self. This is how I do it at the moment.

Step one: learning all my key signatures and all the notes within every key so that I can recite them from first to last note. Ex. Key of Bb: Bb C D Eb F G A.

step 2: learn the scales in thirds. Ex. Key of Bb: Bb D F A C Eb G.

This way I am learning all diatonic major chords and their extensions.

[goldenwave77]

In addition to the methods mentioned here, I've learned a lot by just taking basic forms on the top 4 strings, say the one that is the easy minor 7th bar:

3
3
3
3

Download blank grid forms (available at fretjam.com) and sketch in the voices with dots or just writing in the pitch name, e.g flat 7, now identify the voices in the chord form, i.e. from bass to treble, they are flat 7;flat 3; 5th; and root. Now you can just move them around easily, on paper, to get the other chord types: Maj 7; dom. and minor seven flat five (aka half-diminished).

This is mentioned here in one of the basic lessons on this site...Very solid stuff, and worth looking at.

By doing them is this manner, you'll reinforce, in your mind, the note pitches, and see them "laid out" for you on paper. Then just play through them, and say them.

I used to coach kids basketball. I got myself a magnetic board that showed the basketball ct. Instead of drawing in, x's and o's which looks visually confusing...I got myself some small magnetic checkers, and a smaller orange one to represent the basketball. Then, with the kids we would spend a few minutes sliding them around, on the miniature, drawn to scale, ct. Very quickly, they could see the openings, and the strategies. Once they had the ideas, doing the "walk-throughs" on the ct. proceeded a lot more quickly.

The guitar's "visual appeal" can be a serious, serious trap. Playing purely by position, or shape is a bad, bad idea IMO. Combining this with pitch knowledge, as Nate suggests, is essential. The flat keys are more essential knowledge, but we should know all twelve.

I like to write out things. If you don't know something, you can't express it on paper. It also reinforces knowledge. Riding into work on the train, you'll be surprised at how much you can figure out...w/ pen and paper, and sketching out a diagram, and learning the note names.