Stan Willis on Combining Keys: 2 + 2 equals 4

[christianm77]

Hey Nate... I still like the voicing or two keys at once concept. It does have different results. different organization of the notes and how they react to each other. When I was very young... a was taught how to go through adding flats or a series thought of in 4ths for developing non diatonic notes while soloing... Key of C to F to Bb to Eb... which would add blue notes. Or later during the modal 60's it was another approach for organizing taking your solo ... "outside" gradually. Eventually it all just became Modal Interchange... more of a general category for using different organization of rolls of notes with harmonic reference.

Thanks for that Reg, that's really interesting. That reminds me of a bit in Dexter's solo on Second Balcony Jump where he plays a 1 2 3 5 pentatonic cell on Bb-Eb-Ab-Db (IRC). Is that the sort of thing you mean?

[JonR]

To my ears if you add an F to a C major chord, what happens (if you voice it right) is that the harmony moves to the subdominant. So

C E G + F

Sounds like an inversion of Fadd9, not a Cadd11 chord.

Yes. It's because (as I suppose you know ), all those notes are in the harmonic series of F (although E is rather high), but F is not in the harmonic series of C (nor any of the others, in fact).
So F has a kind of "acoustic authority" over the others. It "owns" them, as it were.

C and F are extremely consonant with each other, but F is the natural root whichever way up they are.
But the higher the F goes, and the more we have other notes representing overtones of C (such as E and G), the more "out" F will sound, because the natural place for an acoustic root is way down below - the fundamental of the harmonic series.

Hence F's disruptive role in the C major key - the only note you can't add to the tonic chord and still keep it stable (rooted on C).
Of course, that's what gives the major key its energy - it needs the element of dissonance to provide the contrast to keep things moving. Otherwise, if we wanted maximum consonance we'd be playing everything in lydian mode.

Anyway, when I talk theory I like to make a distinction between non chord tones used in passing (which I refer to as 2, 4, 6, 7 and second octave extensions which are referred to as compound intervals - 9, 11, 13, 15) Obviously it gets a bit confusing with 6ths and 7ths but there you go.

It's another simplification, but IMO it is a bit closer to the truth than always calling for example D in a C major scale a '9th' regardless of octave. Sometimes a D is a 9, sometimes it's a 2.

It's interesting watching Lage Lund's video because he basically ignores this for the purposes of the video, but he still points out that using a first inversion of the Cmaj9 - D B C E

first inversion? That would have E on the bottom, right?
Isn't this why chord inversions don't generally go beyond third (7th on bottom)? Putting an extension in the bass changes the whole identity of the chord.

- Doesn't sound like a Cmaj9 if it's in too low a register. This is why.

Yes, it sets up other interval relationships, which subvert the "C-rootedness".
Losing the the G from that chord already weakens C's claim to root, although E, D and B still represent overtones of C. But once the D goes below the C, that's "unnatural" in terms of the harmonic series. Our ears take D as root and (in theory) subconsciously try and justify that by comparing the other notes with overtones of D - and fail. E works (as the 9th), but there is no 5th or 3rd of D. So instead of a "C-root" sound, it becomes an intriguingly ambiguous sound.

Anyway apologies for the rather long post. This is as brief as I could make it. I hope it's of interest to some wierdos out there :-)

Count me in! Fully paid up weirdo!

[christianm77]

Looks like we look at things the same way...

first inversion? That would have E on the bottom, right?

So Lage inverts a major ninth chord like this:

C E B D
D B C E
E C D B
B D E C

So he doesn't deal with it as a tertial structure if that makes any sense... There's no G...

[Nate Miller]

Hey Nate... I still like the voicing or two keys at once concept. It does have different results. different organization of the notes and how they react to each other. When I was very young... a was taught how to go through adding flats or a series thought of in 4ths for developing non diatonic notes while soloing... Key of C to F to Bb to Eb... which would add blue notes. Or later during the modal 60's it was another approach for organizing taking your solo ... "outside" gradually. Eventually it all just became Modal Interchange... more of a general category for using different organization of rolls of notes with harmonic reference.

this is actually interesting. A hell of a lot more interesting than 11ths on a major 7. A systematic way of leaving the harmony and going outside.

I want to work with this idea for a few days. When I leave tertian harmony, I just start right in playing stacks of 4s.

I never thought of this before

nice stuff, thanks brother

[christianm77]

Oh no, I did a video (in which I play some of those upper extension things)

[christianm77]

this is actually interesting. A hell of a lot more interesting than 11ths on a major 7. A systematic way of leaving the harmony and going outside.

I want to work with this idea for a few days. When I leave tertian harmony, I just start right in playing stacks of 4s.

I never thought of this before

nice stuff, thanks brother

Would it be possible to post a video at some point? Either yourself or Reg?

[Nate Miller]

Would it be possible to post a video at some point? Either yourself or Reg?

I've been thinking about recording some tunes solo guitar soon for you fellas.

hopefully I get some time this weekend

but yea, I think I should post a recording too

Its just that I'm a Luddite, so you'll need to be patient with me while I figure out how to cope with the interwebs

[Nate Miller]

ok, here's some more thought on how to apply this concept...

any harmonic idea worth its salt will also help you construct single line ideas. I tend to play a lot of 4 note patterns that outline a triad. Each bar has 2 four-note groups. So if over the first 4 bars of Rhythm Changes, which are all really in the key of Bb, we could employ the idea of 2+2=4 to fill that 4 bar space

Let's say we want to use the key of E major over Bb.

we could pick the triads Bb, Cmin | C#min, D#dim | Emajor , F7 | Gmin Bb

the notes involved from outside the key of Bb are: C#, E, A and G# ...or 11 of the 12 chromatic notes

Now let's say we want to use B over Bb

our triads now might be Bb B | C#min D#min| Emajor F7| Gmin Bb

the notes outside the key are now: B,C#, E, A, and G# ....we just used all 12 notes

So the point is that the keys you choose to superimpose on each other will effect which of the 5 notes outside the key you are going to use and which triads will harmonize those notes

This example here is similar to George Van Epps' displaced Concept in Harmonic Mechanisms vol 3

what 2+2=4 really does is help you create very complex harmonic ideas right at the threshold of the breakdown of tonality.

[Reg]

What's the organization for which keys to use... and what's the organization for picking triads
I get the basics...

Triads built on all 7 notes from keys... but only use in triad form. (excepts the F7 ?)
And generally your just stacking triads within diatonic 2nds... except G- and Bb ?

What bebop changes are you using... I VI / II V / III VI II V...?

It's fairly easy to use a number of harmonic approaches to use all 12 notes within each bar and still sound very diatonically tonal to the key... What's the point?

[Reg]

Would it be possible to post a video at some point? Either yourself or Reg?

What type of vid are you after... example of how using the organization of going through keys in 4ths to change one note at a time with same tonal reference... or using the application in relationship to organizing access to blue notes.

Or just just the transitional effect in general... as compared to direct or pivot applications.

I'm still trying to get nates Idea of 2=2+4. I don't get the organization and relationships yet.

[Nate Miller]

What's the organization for which keys to use... and what's the organization for picking triads
I get the basics...

Triads built on all 7 notes from keys... but only use in triad form. (excepts the F7 ?)
And generally your just stacking triads within diatonic 2nds... except G- and Bb ?

What bebop changes are you using... I VI / II V / III VI II V...?

It's fairly easy to use a number of harmonic approaches to use all 12 notes within each bar and still sound very diatonically tonal to the key... What's the point?

good questions.

The keys you chose are based on the relationship between the keys. The more distant the relation, the more notes are out of the key. But whatever the notes included in the two key, those notes are like your pallet. So it can serve to both limit the notes you use, it also allows you a context to present those notes

this basic concept can be applied in a lot of different ways on a guitar

In the example I put out over Rhythm changes, I was using the "displacement concept" from George Van Epps Harmonic Mechanisms vol 3. If you were to play the diatonic triads in Bb from the tonic to the 6th you have:

Bb C- D- Eb F G-

Now displace the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th triad to the key of B

Bb C#- D#- E F G-

Granted, I wouldn't comp that behind your solo unless we had talked about it and were of the same mind. I think these ideas work best playing solo or with a regular group.

This idea of 2+2=4 is a general principle. the tactical implementation is up to the player. What it can really do for you is to give you a way to employ notes and triads from outside the key, and present them in a way that is well organized.

now when I put this thread out, I simply was wondering if anyone had run into this concept. Guys in the bop era would have very individual ideas on theory. There wasn't courses in jazz theory back then, so each player had a fairly individual approach. Consider Bud Powell. For myself, I really was curious if Stan's concept was a close guarded secret, or if there were other players out there working along similar lines.

What it seems to me is that there are definitely players playing polytonally, there are definitely players who work to combine keys, but I do believe that Stan's cryptic riddle 2+2=4 was probably his own individual name for all this

[Reg]

Hey Thanks Nate... yea I remember the stories about Stan. Jon Handy a local sax player I meet while a teen use to perform with Stan... and all the Bop city stories. I know he hosted a lot of the jams back in the 60's, from Washington Hotel to smaller hangs... I remember the stride like left hand stories at very very up tempos. never really heard about the harmonic approach... but I was very kid... just wanting to play and didn't know much.


*** this is all west coast, SF...

[JonR]

Looks like we look at things the same way...



So Lage inverts a major ninth chord like this:

C E B D
D B C E
E C D B
B D E C

So he doesn't deal with it as a tertial structure if that makes any sense... There's no G...

It's still tertian by implication, but yes it makes sense. It's just not conventional terminology, which was what confused me.
Personally, I'd call that revoicing the chord, rather than inverting.
Is there a system to how he voices the upper 3 notes? Eg, why DBCE, and not DCEB, etc? I guess it's to keep the voicings close (given the absence of G)?

And what does one actually gain from this system? I.e. why these voicings and not others?

Or should I just watch Lage Lund's video myself??

[JonR]

Well, post April of 1965 or so, sus chords certainly don't have to resolve.

Maybe take that back to 1964 and Hard Day's Night...

.. and I don't suppose George Martin regarded it as a totally new thing either....

[JonR]

The Simpsons theme and many TV use Lydian for the #4/#11 to create interest.

The Simpsons theme is actually C lydian dominant. It resolves in classic fashion to a B chord, although it does take a while (4 bars) to get there.

[JonR]

whats a good song to learn to get
the tonic maj #11 into my ear ?

I suggest Joe Satriani, Flying in a Blue Dream. It's in C lydian, with an F# in the harmony and in the melody.
Other chords are involved (Ab, G and F) but they are all lydian chords too (#11s in the melody).

[christianm77]

It's still tertian by implication, but yes it makes sense. It's just not conventional terminology, which was what confused me.
Personally, I'd call that revoicing the chord, rather than inverting.
Is there a system to how he voices the upper 3 notes? Eg, why DBCE, and not DCEB, etc? I guess it's to keep the voicings close (given the absence of G)?

And what does one actually gain from this system? I.e. why these voicings and not others?

Or should I just watch Lage Lund's video myself??

He's just moving each note up to the next one.

C-->D-->E-->B-->C etc

If you do this with a regular major 7th chord say:

C G B E

You get the standard drop 2 inversions:

C G B E
E B C G
G C E B
B E G C

But the advantage is you could do this with any intervallic structure of any number of notes.

Lage's video is great - much info.

[Nate Miller]

Hey Thanks Nate... yea I remember the stories about Stan. Jon Handy a local sax player I meet while a teen use to perform with Stan... and all the Bop city stories. I know he hosted a lot of the jams back in the 60's, from Washington Hotel to smaller hangs... I remember the stride like left hand stories at very very up tempos. never really heard about the harmonic approach... but I was very kid... just wanting to play and didn't know much.


*** this is all west coast, SF...

wow, you knew of Stan...that's fantastic

And yes, San Francisco is where he was. I met him years later up in Anchorage. Playing with him was always fantastic. I remember when he heard something he really liked, he'd say things like "everybody who heard that got ten years added to their lives". He raised the energy of the whole room, even in his 70s when I knew him. He told me one time I was from the Tree of Life. He said that to everybody he liked. I always dug when he asked me around to his place to learn a tune. Everything he taught, he taught in the context of a tune. I learned more from him that I'm still chewing on than anybody else, ever.

[JonR]

He's just moving each note up to the next one.

C-->D-->E-->B-->C etc

If you do this with a regular major 7th chord say:

C G B E

You get the standard drop 2 inversions:

C G B E
E B C G
G C E B
B E G C

Understood. CGBE is drop 2 to begin with, and it has 3 inversions.

But the advantage is you could do this with any intervallic structure of any number of notes.

Well, of course. No great revelation there!

Lage's video is great - much info.

No doubt. I wouldn't judge by brief quotes! (It's the application of that observation that's escaping me at the moment. It may be that I know it all already and take it for granted. But of course I don't know everything....)