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Why does a #4 (lydian) in a major scale sound more "correct" or major than a major scale?
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12-29-2015 07:16 PM
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I will respond with the question: "it does, or you've heard people say it does?"
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A very short answer is that the 4th sounds like a new root, since so much jazz is founded on chord progressions moving in 4ths.
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In my case, I've heard people say it does, but to me it still doesn't. Maybe I need more experience to hear it. Could use some directed listening perhaps...
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Because you have listen to too many TV themes and now lust for a #4 like a Jazz Vampire.
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(1) Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
For me it works nicely because it gets rid of the m9 interval between the M3 and the 11 an octave and a half step above. The natural 4 CAN absolutely work, but to be used effectively and musically, it really requires some care. It's also good to know it's there within the larger context of the key signature of an entire chord progression. Playing the #11 over the 1 chord is fine, but it's good to know that that #11 will cause the V7 chord to become a VMaj7 and the ii7 to become II7, which if we're playing over tunes and functional harmony, we probably don't want.
(2)
The normal order for modes is to think of them based on scale degree... Ionian, dorian, phrygian, etc. I also like to structure them in another way.
Lydian: 1 - 2 - 3 - #4 - 5 - 6 - 7
Ionian: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
Mixolydian: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - b7
Dorian: 1 - 2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - b7
Aeolian: 1 - 2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b6 - b7
Phrygian: 1 - b2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b6 - b7
Locrian: 1 - b2 - b3 - 4 - b5 - b6 - b7
By starting on Lydian and moving to Locrain in this way, it actually creates a situation where each new mode is identical to the previous except that one note has been flatted. Starting with Lydian, every note is at its largest, widest version within the major scale. Whereas in Locrian, all the intervals have been lowered and are in their smallest versions. This creates a spectrum where the modes start with the brightest palette, and move towards the darkest. So in this way of thinking, Lydian is the brightest sound. Or as you said... it sounds more major than the major scale. That might be another way of communicating that you're noticing that it's a brighter quality than Ionian.
(3)
While all of the above two points are true, and while I do use the 4 and the #4 at different times... for me... I intentionally leave them both out often. They are sounds I utilize only when I really want one or the other. I don't default to either. I default to neither. And then if I really want to create the lydian sound, I'll pull out the #4. Or if I really want the natural 4 for some specific reason. But 90% of the time, when I'm working over a Maj7, I just let both the notes sit on the bench.Last edited by jordanklemons; 12-29-2015 at 08:19 PM.
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you are not alone , i can't hear the lydian sound as "home" Originally Posted by jasaco
mind you the 4th in the melody does sound
"away" to me too ....
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12-29-2015, 08:43 PM #8destinytot GuestAnother of those 'select-and-print to PDF' comments - thanks, Jordan! Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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Is this the mode order using the Lydian chromatic concept? The 1(Ionian) becomes Lydian? The 2(Dorian) becomes Ionian? Or is the 1 Lydian and the 2 mixolydan and so on?
Lydian: 1 - 2 - 3 - #4 - 5 - 6 - 7
Ionian: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7
Mixolydian: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - b7
Dorian: 1 - 2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - b7
Aeolian: 1 - 2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b6 - b7
Phrygian: 1 - b2 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b6 - b7
Locrian: 1 - b2 - b3 - 4 - b5 - b6 - b7
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Another? Glad my long-winded answers are helpful DT! haha Originally Posted by destinytot
I'm such a theory nerd. I could geek out about this stuff all day.
I honestly have no idea Bob. I've never studied Lydian Chromatic. I know enough about it to know that it's based off the lydian mode... I think. Even that I'm not 100% on. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
It's just a way of looking at modes that, to me, shows another relationship between them. The traditional order shows how they exist next to each other diatonically... the order they show up in within any given key.
This order shows a sort of flow chart between them... showing which notes stay the same and which ONE note changes. I don't usually practice or think about modes or scales, but if I am working on some modal type of thing, I like to do it this way. Keeps me on my toes and thinking... and it helps my ear hear the brightness and darkness moving through their sounds. Which I like.
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
I still have one of the early copies I brought back in 70's when working at the music school. Back then it was the hot thing to study we had a class in it, but I never took it, I was still getting up to speed chord families. I'll have to see if I can dig it up, I remember his has like a musical slide rule or something to help decode things.
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Doesn't the Lydian scale line right up with the overtone series? And the major scale does not?
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Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
Lydian Dominant the one that's similar to the over tone series. When i first learned the scale it was called the Overtone scale back in the 70's.
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I came across this
http://www.pbguitarstudio.com/pdf_fi...nProject1a.pdf
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LCC is about tonal gravity in relation to how close or far away from Lydian you get, and it is a system that replaces functional harmony in practice. If you think theory buffs are geeks, LCC is more like a cult...
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Looks like it has more to do with stacked 5ths and the overtone series than it does with religion?
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12-29-2015, 10:10 PM #17destinytot Guest
'Perfect' 5ths.
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Yes
"The Lydian Chromatic concept is a musictheory organizational framework based entirely on the idea of a naturally occurring harmonic system of musicaltonality which is derived from the Lydian Scale (1-2-3-#4—5-6-7-1) instead of the commonly-used traditionalmajor scale (1-2-3-4-5-6-7-1). All harmonies are derived from the original Lydian Scale and it is used in placeof the traditional major scale. The raised 4th degree (#4) of the Lydian Scale changes the way we hear andthink about tonality. We have traditionally been used to thinking of the 4th degree of any scale as a Perfect 4thhowever the Lydian Scale always assumes the 4th is raised to a #4. This allows perfect harmonic alignmentwith chords and allows for an understanding and complete organizational framework for Jazz and ModernHarmonic structures. "Last edited by bobsguitars09; 12-29-2015 at 10:14 PM.
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"Back in the mid 20th century, jazz musician and composer George Russell came out with his vitallyimportant book “The Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization.” Its introduction literally setthe modern jazz world on its head. It was a totally new concept based in very old ideas which originatedas far back as Pythagoras. Many musicians were very intrigued by the Lydian Chromatic Concept andmany diligently studied it with devotion and almost all who have learned it’s concepts and principles andwho have integrated it into their own personal musical concepts and thinking have been able to achievewriting and improvising goals that far surpassed the ideas and imaginations of any musicians that camebefore them. Almost all of the top jazz players of the latter half of the century have either been overtlyor covertly influenced by the ideas and tonalities presented within the Lydian Chromatic Concept. Itcontains some unusual theoretical ideas that fly in the face of traditional music theory, but as one digestsand interprets the concept and begins to explore it for themselves, it makes more and more sense bothharmonically and theoretically and logically. After you think about the concepts for a longer period oftime, it starts to take on a new meaning and become a new and exiting realm for the exploration of newmusical ideas.
There have also been equally as many detractors and debunkers of Russell’s theory as there aresupporters of it. The internet is full of blogs claiming that it’s the most innovative idea that has everbeen invented while simultaneously the debunkers argue against its practicality and like to criticize itand toss it aside in favor of their well worn traditional theoretical principles. This it itself always seemsto be the case whenever a new advanced idea is presented to the world. Rather than investigate it andexplore the possibilities, many are afraid to leave the music theory comfort zone and step “outside thebox’ and examine Russell’s magnificent work, even if only a little. Many of these same debunkers arequick to criticize its usefulness, but at the same time, the Lydian Chromatic Concept is always therewaiting for you and it quietly beckons your mind to come closer for another look.
Once you startthinking for yourself about it and start working with and exploring it, many other musical ideas begin
to start “clicking” and things start making sense and appearing to you. Some of which can become assimple as just an “ah ha!” in your mind with every new understanding. Or you can also experiencesomething along the lines of a deep emotional response and reaction to nothing less than a personalinternal musical revelation. One thing is for certain – John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Bill Evans, JanGarbarek, Herbie Hancock and Keith Jarrett cannot all be wrong. These are only some of the long listof players who have embraced Russell’s ideas and who have integrated it into their own writing andplaying. "
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"almost all who have learned it’s concepts and principles and who have integrated it into their own personal musical concepts and thinking have been able to achieve writing and improvising goals that far surpassed the ideas and imaginations of any musicians that came before them"
I find that an extraordinary claim, and more than just a little bit difficult to swallow.
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The internet is full of blogs claiming that it’s the most innovative idea that has everbeen invented while simultaneously the debunkers argue against its practicality and like to criticize itand toss it aside in favor of their well worn traditional theoretical principles. This it itself always seemsto be the case whenever a new advanced idea is presented to the world. Rather than investigate it andexplore the possibilities, many are afraid to leave the music theory comfort zone and step “outside thebox’ and examine Russell’s magnificent work, even if only a little. Many of these same debunkers arequick to criticize its usefulness, but at the same time, the Lydian Chromatic Concept is always therewaiting for you and it quietly beckons your mind to come closer for another look.
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For me, the reason why the Lydian mode sounds 'stable' is to do with acoustics. Mathematically speaking the perfect fourth is the odd one out of the major scale. I could go into further detail if you want. But there will be maths (as we say in the UK.) You have been warned.
If you have access to a real piano, try this. This will only work on an acoustic (tuned) piano.
Hold down a G and play C hard. Release the C so the note stops ringing and
Try this with a C triad, while the other hand holds down a G triad.
Do the same thing with a Cmajor7 while holding down an F#
Now try it with the F instead. The F won't ring.
See what I mean?
The Lydian is kind of static - it serves as an extension of the major triad and sits there. The odd note out (4) creates two clear regions in the Ionian mode - Tonic and Subdominant/Dominant, and the 4-3 move makes the ii-V-I, for instance, work.
This works similar for Dorian/Melodic minor and Aeolian (Natural Minor)/Harmonic Minor modes. Here, it's the b6... The same note if we are dealing with relative minor.
---Historical bumf----
I would argue that the inherent Dynamism of the Major (Ionian) mode is the very thing that made it interesting to the composers of the late Middle Ages. Music was often based on the Lydian mode, and the Ionian mode was considered vulgar or folksy. Composers would go as far to alter other modes to have the #4 and 7 so that they could have Lydian cadences in the Dorian or Mixolydian modes, for example. Harmonies were based around 4ths, 5ths and 8ves - the 'perfect' intervals. Everything else was a dissonance, including 3rds.
During the late middle ages, the English style became popular, which used more tertial harmonies and the Ionian mode. Eventually this became the basis of the Renaissance style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei9btWV8uKcLast edited by christianm77; 12-30-2015 at 07:46 AM.
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None of the scales do really. There is a mathematical background to all of this which is tangentially connected to the overtone series. It also has an awful lot to do the issue of temperament which is central to the development of different harmonic styles... Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
For me the overtone sequence is far less important than the superposition of waveforms with fractional relationships. I think Galileo, who was a keen music theorist and lutenist, was on to something here, although his contribution to acoustics is sidelined in favour of people like Helmholtz who did important work on the Overtone spectrum and helped lay the foundations of modern acoustics.Last edited by christianm77; 12-30-2015 at 07:52 AM.
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I'm digging into that book now, hopefully I can update my thoughts when I can "see the light at the end of the tunnel". Thanks being said, already inspired some cool voicings I wouldn't have come up with otherwise.... Anyway...
Just wanted to clear up the misunderstanding of his use of the word mode. Below are the modes referenced.
Mode 1 Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
2 Lydian aug 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7
3 Lydian Dim 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7
4 Lydian dom 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7
5 aux aug 1 2 3 #4 #5 b7
6 aux dim 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 6 7
7 aud dim blues = hw dim
Horizontal scales (Active)include the 4th
1 - Major
2- Mixolydian
3- Maj aug 1 2 3 4 5 #5 6 7
4-ABlues1 2 b3 3 4 b5 5 6 b7
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I'm sure that most of that is true. I've spent some time with it and I certainly wouldn't seek to debunk it, or criticise its usefulness, I just find the claim that "almost all who have learned it’s concepts and principles and who have integrated it into their own personal musical concepts and thinking have been able to achieve writing and improvising goals that far surpassed the ideas and imaginations of any musicians that came before them" is not believable. It's a huge claim, and is totally lacking in any evidence whatsoever to substantiate it. Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
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