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what do you guys call
the "sixth mode of the melodic minor"
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
i'm messing around with it on the min7b5
chord ....
I'd like a better name if poss
(I don't much like "locrian nat 2" as a name
either)
thanks boys and girls , women and men xx
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10-30-2015 02:10 PM
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I've heard it called the "half diminished scale."
What's wrong with Locrian nat. 2? I mean...that's what it is, A locrian scale with a natural 2...
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i tend to relate melodic minor modes back to their major counterparts. so for me, i think of it as "aeolian b5"
but i can absolutely see why people would want to think of it as "locrian natural 2" since its most common use is over m7b5 chords.
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i prefer nth mode of melodic minor. too many effin' names.
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I actually refer to it as "..melodic minor on a m7b5 chord.." and never use a name.
I guess Locrian nat2 is the most precise one? I've seen Locrian 9 and Locrian #2 too.
Never heard of half dim scale before, not sure I like that name (In general I don't like new things...)
Jens
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Right, not sure this stuff needs a name anyway. What's wrong with saying, "play C MM over an Fm7b5?
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That Fm7b5 is not diatonic to C melodic minor?
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Jens
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Arrrrgh, typing too fast again without thinking!
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i have always heard the "half diminished scale" in reference to the half-whole scale. people call the half-whole scale a lot of different names.
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6th mode of melodic minor is often called the half diminished scale, or Locrian 2 scale....our Jazz Guitar Online lessons call it Aeolian b5 or Locrian#2.
Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 10-31-2015 at 08:32 PM.
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yeah it seems to have lots of different names Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
unfortunatelly ....
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When everybody has to find a name for something you get lot's of options
Some of the stuff people come up with is really far out, like all the prog lessons that call chromatic passing notes "Wrong notes or Jazz notes" I think I also saw somebody calling open voiced triads "10s with 5ths".
I remember hearing somewhere that this was the scale that originally got the name super locrian, but maybe that's an urban jazz myth...
In terms of how you use the scale I find the Aeolian b5 a bit misleading.
And just to rant on: Calling Melodic Minor "Jazz minor" is horrible, classical music uses maj6 and maj7 descending too, at least in some of the stuff I've played.
Jens
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I agree. Originally Posted by JensL
When everybody has to find a name for something you get lot's of options Some of the stuff people come up with is really far out, like all the prog lessons that call chromatic passing notes "Wrong notes or Jazz notes" I think I also saw somebody calling open voiced triads "10s with 5ths".
I remember hearing somewhere that this was the scale that originally got the name super locrian, but maybe that's an urban jazz myth...
In terms of how you use the scale I find the Aeolian b5 a bit misleading.
And just to rant on: Calling Melodic Minor "Jazz minor" is horrible, classical music uses maj6 and maj7 descending too, at least in some of the stuff I've played.
Jens
I usually think of it as a melodic minor on IV, because the iim7b5 chord is an inversion of m6 and a subdominant function chord. Once I understood that it opened up a lot of doors soloing through standards changes.
But if you analysed one of my solos you might see me playing 'Locrian natural 2.' Same thing, I just prefer to think of the other way because it is such a common sound in both major and minor keys and has a simple name- four minor.
But if you've played it enough times in context, the name shouldn't really matter? Just a label.
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yes mel min on the 4 chord thats how Originally Posted by christianm77
I think ... I'm thinking of it ...
yes whats in a name ?
I just wondered if we here could find consensus
probably not ... ho hum ... doesn't matter
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Eh? This is Jazzguitar.be. Originally Posted by pingu
Actually that said i was surprised by the consensus of the people who replied on my bebop thread... It is possible...
I am a reasonably experienced, educated, travelled and open minded guy, and I have to say, I find it almost impossible to believe that some people find scales with names like locrian natural 2 easier to deal with then melodic minor a minor third up. But the world is full of surprises.
I suppose you have to have exams in something otherwise jazz students would spend all their time doing jazz and then before you know it all academic credibility (I.e. $$$$) goes out the window. That's why we have the aegis of Doing it Properly. (not that anyone in their right mind gives a fig after you graduate.)
Needless to say, that's just my bitter and cynical two cents worth. But by Barry harris's beard I can tell you which I use to get through the changes ;-)Last edited by christianm77; 11-10-2015 at 11:07 PM.
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I'm surprised you're surprised. Originally Posted by christianm77
"Locrian natural 2" is a clear reference to how the scale works on the chord, referring to the intervals from the root.
"melodic minor a minor third up" is OK (provided you know your melodic minor scales
), but that's merely a coincidental resemblance. The use of the scale would not be in that minor key.
E.g., the term "altered scale" is better than "7th mode melodic minor", same as "lydian dominant" is better than "4th mode melodic minor" ("mixolydian #4" might be better still, but lydian dominant is the convention).
The scales in question don't come from melodic minor - and have nothing to do with the minor key in question - they just resemble melodic minor modes, which is a handy memory aid (if as I say you know your melodic minor scales).
Much better - IMO - to understand how they work with (derive from) the chords and contexts they're applied to.
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Hi jon, Originally Posted by JonR
I'm surprised you're surprised.
"Locrian natural 2" is a clear reference to how the scale works on the chord, referring to the intervals from the root.
"melodic minor a minor third up" is OK (provided you know your melodic minor scales), but that's merely a coincidental resemblance. The use of the scale would not be in that minor key.
E.g., the term "altered scale" is better than "7th mode melodic minor", same as "lydian dominant" is better than "4th mode melodic minor" ("mixolydian #4" might be better still, but lydian dominant is the convention).
The scales in question don't come from melodic minor - and have nothing to do with the minor key in question - they just resemble melodic minor modes, which is a handy memory aid (if as I say you know your melodic minor scales).
Much better - IMO - to understand how they work with (derive from) the chords and contexts they're applied to.
In part my post was not entirely in seriousness, as I can see the point of seeing things in different ways.
Having post this the other day I read though the section on chord/scale thinking in mick goodricks the advancing guitarist, which got me thinking, as that book is wont to do.
He sums it up very nicely - the way I and Jens think is termed 'derivative' while those who construct modes using locrian Nat 2 etc employ 'parallel thinking.' Both involve a computational overhead at some point, in my case it comes from working out what scale for which chord, while for the parallel approach it's all about mastering the seven modes for the three or four commonly used scales, and having them completely mastered (then you can employ them directly.)
It seems to me that for the type of playing I mostly do which is a lot of standards, the derivative approach makes a lot of sense because the repertoire of scale movements is fairly limited and standardised. For example, you can expect c major f melodic minor to come up in a standard tune in c 75% of the time....
For less traditional harmony the derivative approach may be less effective than the parallel. In fact I do use a parallel system of scales but this tends to be based around the most common chord scale types (Lydian, Dorian etc) and for altered I would usually use the melodic minor up a semitone thing ( bearing in mind this would refer to the fingering not the scale sounds.) so a bit of a hodgepodge in fact, and maybe could use some clarifying and standardising as I am playing a bit of the non functional/apparently random chords stuff now...
Anyway, I hope no one took my rant too seriously. I would stick by the statement that derivative scale use is a great way to go through standards as you only need three scales to get all the sounds, but parallel guys ought to be able to spot the patterns too...Last edited by christianm77; 11-13-2015 at 05:40 PM.
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hah, I just watched an hour long interview with Steve Morse, who I have a lot of respect or, AND who is a music school graduate, and he was saying "you know, those voicings that are root, fifth, tenth." He certainly knows and plays his open (Berklee calls em "spread" I think) triads pretty well, maybe either just not familiar with the terminology, or dumbing it down for the audience. Originally Posted by JensL
I think I was playing them for a while without knowing the name...same with the "minor cliche"
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Oh, and not only do I not think of a name for that scale, I just think of it a m7b5 chord with a 9, 11, and b13!
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Okay, I can't see "semantics" without thinking of this scene...
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Yes. As a Novice I relate well to a Roman Numeral also so V MM over a Minor7b5 does not sound complicated and says what it is. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
As opposed to calling it Plutonian Minor etc. like it's something totally new and different.
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