Why is music education centered around theory

[christianm77]

It's a parallel reality within music school. One of the dumbest things we had to do was 'write' an improvisation, either as a test or home work. The purpose was to demonstrate that we understood the concepts that were being taught. In that respect it had some validity. Think of it as a theory test instead of improvisation, and it makes sense. HOWEVER, at the same time there were scheduled improvisation ensembles, where you'd spend an hour or so, thrown in at the deep end, playing in small groups, each taking solos, trading fours etc. The guys who took those classes were laid back and at no point did they try to force us to play the approaches being taught in lectures. One encouraged us to use nothing but our ears (a sort of f*ck theory approach); the other was really cool in suggesting alternative approaches over things we were struggling with. Either way, it was totally creative and relaxed (no big deal if you ****** up)

Also, aside from the 'weird' analytical stuff, students do things on their own accord you know. They're not all androids waiting to be programmed by their all-important tutor. Chr*st, most of my learning came about from all the jam sessions, in college and outside, plus gigging experience. Some students on the course were already full time musicians They were studying because they realised from 'real world' experience what their limitations were.

Sounds great!

Perhaps you're meeting the wrong type of music graduate? Admittedly, you could single out grads who are 'non-creatives'. I knew a few students who simply couldn't improvise. I think it was in them to be creative, but they felt otherwise...so they stuck to the human juke-box thing, played in cover bands, and wrote out their solos when playing jazz. They were in the minority though. Young people do have brains; especially if they're educated (which you have to be if you go to study). Creative types will create, regardless of how rigid their tuition is.

I'm not sure if this is aimed at my comments, but if so I think you have not understood what I was trying to say. Probably this is my fault :-)

I am lucky to meet and play with many fantastic players, some of whom are not music college trained, but the majority of whom are. Most seem pretty skeptical about the value of the college courses they have attended, but that said, they are probably not the best people to grasp what they may have got out of studying at a conservatoire. Obviously not everyone who graduates then goes on to perform for a living.

My own position, FWIW, is I feel actually there are things that I have missed out on by not going - the sorts of things you identified in your post. I'd like to add something. Speaking to a professor on perhaps the top UK jazz course, he mentioned the phenomenon of there sometimes being really motivated years - so one year you might get an intake of really dedicated hard working students who kick each other up the bum to become better and better. Other years, perhaps less so.

In any case, anyone who is self motivated and driven will stand more of a chance of a career in music than a music major who just turns up to class and expects that to be enough. That's obvious really. But there is a surprising shortage of bright eyed young Jazzers turning up to have a blow at the Oliver's jam session, just around the corner from one of the London conservatoires (Trinity), with a well respected jazz course. What does that say? At their age I was out every night at jams (playing terribly but learning haha!) Partly it's fear of being judged by one's colleagues... 19 year old music students are often pretty fearful creatures.

I don't know how it works in the US. Perhaps tutors are more ... coercive? ... in their approach to motivating students to do some work. But on the other hand, given how much everyone laughed at Whiplash, I daresay that they are not in the majority.

I will concede that there might be a generation gap here (in the UK). About a year after I finished my studies, the course I was on downgraded in order to receive 'official' recognition/status. A drummer I knew ended up teaching on the course and he said it had tanked in terms of: standard of pupil being admitted (let's go for the bucks and get the kids in); and standard of teaching (dumbed down for a shorter, two-year course). In the early 90s a whole load of similar courses started to spring up...so it's possible that standards across the country have tanked.

I'm not sure. I think it's possible standards might have improved. Everyone seems to be a monster these days. I think players are pretty highly motivated in London - we all feel the need to improve. It's not NY yet, but we are getting better!

[christianm77]

That's a real shame. I believe a not-for-profit educational institution owes it to the students to be insanely competitive just like the real world. I'm not necessarily advocating the Whiplash approach, but if the kid doesn't have a chance, get him to pick a more appropriate major.

I find this post quite troubling for a few reasons. It doesn't really reflect the professional working environment as I understand it.

They should probably assess the musical chances of young musicians based on their capacity for sending endless unanswered emails to jazz clubs and chatting up club owners ;-) Now there's an idea:

Year 1 'real life' jazz syllabus
Hustling 101.
Turning up to gigs on time 101.
Not being an arse 101.
Faking it on gigs 101.
Thinking of things to talk about on long car journey's 101.
Not apologising for your playing when you've cocked up the gig because you might have done OK and they might call you again 101
Not apologising for your playing because it is literally the most boring thing anyone can have to listen to 101

I need to take some of those courses, actually...

Haha. No you learn that anyway. College should be a time to explore possibilities.

Which reminds me - there are a few jazz musicians in London who studied at Dartington College of Arts. This is (was) a very loose mixed discipline arts course in which you could expect to get involved with all sorts of out there stuff - site specific installations, building instruments, working with non musician artists, exploring the area between sounds and music, etc....

I have to say the musicians who come out of this have a certain vibe - focussed, very self motivated and very sure of themselves, often more so than conservatoire graduates. A surprising number end up doing pretty straight stuff - straight-ahead jazz, and so on...

[BigDee62]

They should probably assess the musical chances of young musicians based on their capacity for sending endless unanswered emails to jazz clubs and chatting up club owners ;-) Now there's an idea:

Year 1 'real life' jazz syllabus ...

You're on to something there. It must be a rare and lucky musician who can pay all the bills off of one long-standing employment commitment. Everybody is effectively a small business owner. I think some music schools are now offering courses like "the business of music," but I don't think any such thing existed at North Texas when I attended.

My sister tells the story from her freshman year, when her instrument prof (oboe) challenged her to come to next week's lesson with a backup career plan - what will you do if you can't survive in music? She went to the next lesson nearly in tears, that she couldn't think of anything else she could do. Her prof's response: Well then you might have a chance in music.

It seems to take that narrow focus, not only to master the musicianship, but just to survive that first year of getting yourself set up as that small business person.

[BigDee62]

I invite you (or anyone here) to think of 10 learning activities which could challenge or develop the creative process in improvised music. Your 10 gets my 10. I think that would be constructive classroom exercise in itself.

How about quality over quantity? Because I honestly can't think of 10. But here goes ...

1. Get a copy of the Charlie Parker Omnibook. Learn to play Anthropology or Confirmation, as slow as necessary, but also singing it at the same time.

2. Google for ii-V-I turnaround licks, pick one or two simple ones, learn in two positions. Slowly work up your speed.

3. Develop fluency with two altered cadences, e.g.
- ii7b5 - V7+5+9 - i69 in drop 2, in two positions
- ascending chord sequence of min6 / dim7, following the be-bop scale

4. Pick a jazz solo you enjoy listening to, that won't test your virtuosity. Transcribe it - literally write it out on staff paper - and then memorize it and learn to play it at speed or nearly so

5. Every day, before any structured practice, take one of these ideas and doodle on it for at least 15 minutes

6. Optional (if you have a keyboard): Ask a friend to plunk out a few random notes on the keyboard. Then pick up the guitar and harmonize the sequence into a personalized song. Believe me, this one provides some other very nice benefits as well, as my wife will attest to from our courtship.

Learning to improvise is a quest, not a task to be completed. If you devote time to the above exercises, you'll be on your way, and the quality of your improvisation will most certainly improve.

[christianm77]

How about quality over quantity? Because I honestly can't think of 10. But here goes ...

1. Get a copy of the Charlie Parker Omnibook. Learn to play Anthropology or Confirmation, as slow as necessary, but also singing it at the same time.

2. Google for ii-V-I turnaround licks, pick one or two simple ones, learn in two positions. Slowly work up your speed.

3. Develop fluency with two altered cadences, e.g.
- ii7b5 - V7+5+9 - i69 in drop 2, in two positions
- ascending chord sequence of min6 / dim7, following the be-bop scale

4. Pick a jazz solo you enjoy listening to, that won't test your virtuosity. Transcribe it - literally write it out on staff paper - and then memorize it and learn to play it at speed or nearly so

5. Every day, before any structured practice, take one of these ideas and doodle on it for at least 15 minutes

6. Optional (if you have a keyboard): Ask a friend to plunk out a few random notes on the keyboard. Then pick up the guitar and harmonize the sequence into a personalized song. Believe me, this one provides some other very nice benefits as well, as my wife will attest to from our courtship.

Learning to improvise is a quest, not a task to be completed. If you devote time to the above exercises, you'll be on your way, and the quality of your improvisation will most certainly improve.

Cool! I'll post mine in a bit....

[christianm77]

1. Focus on soloing with limitations. I could cheat and do all 10 as this... Very powerful
- solo on one string
- solo on one note
- solo on 3rds and 7ths
- solo within one octave
- play 1 bay, take off 1 bar, then 2, 3, 4, 5 etc, moving to doing this over forms
- start lines on a specific beat, moving back by an eighth each time
- end lines on a specific beat, moving back by an eighth each time

2. Aim to play deliberately wrong
- One semitone out all the time
- Play on the next chord
- Play the changes from a different tune
- Play the A over the B and vice versa
- Aim to play as out of time as you possibly can

3. Purely vocal improvisation. Could start purely rhythmically, perhaps on one mode and then moving to soloing on changes as student skill progresses.

4. Explore dualities in soloing - focus on one at a time
Loud/soft
Single/double time
Triple/duple time
Minor/major
Inside/Outside
Consonant/Dissonant
etc

5. Improvise only on one interval.

6. Motivic improvisation

7. Play melodies with embellishments (then embellish the embellishments) Lee Konitz style

8. Free improvisation
- on paintings
- on text
- on musical material
- literally endless ways of structuring 'free improvisation' (i.e. non stylistic) sessions

9. Randomly select a number and randomly choose musicians to play together in groups. Should be most interesting when you get, say, 2 saxes and a drummer.

10. Miles Davis stuff - one sentence instructions given to improvisors:
o Play the guitar like you don’t know how to play the guitar.’
o Play the second (or third) thing that comes into your head.
o End it before its finished.

I can think of loads more.

[BigDee62]

Several of those ideas, e.g. #1 "with limitations" or #5 "only one interval," I'll ask students to do as a written exercise first. This is particularly helpful for students first venturing outside of classical performance, where they may be very uncomfortable playing anything that isn't written out. Once they get past that, though, your dualities, or playing one semitone out, is fairly easy, fun, and emboldens them to further experiment.

Your outline encourages free-form improvisation of any style. I was specifically focusing on improvisation within the jazz idiom, hence the difference btwn the two sets of exercises.

[fumblefingers]

Christianm77 - but you don't have time for a lesson plan, lol.

[fumblefingers]

I find it's difficult to separate the two concepts of skill and creativity. There are days when my improvisation surprises myself - but that creativity wouldn't be there if I hadn't logged tens of thousands of hours practicing and composing.

I understand many (most?) successful novelists have developed a life-long habit of writing at least a few hours every day. That's where skill and craft turns into creativity.

sure. this is all subjective territory.

after all, a person can create something (not necessarily very good) and therefore say that they're creative. it can't be proven or disproven, empirically.

[fumblefingers]

What is the intrinsic value of the creative product?
How is this balanced against the value of the creative process?

it's all subjective, but one might say that it's the measure of how well a work is received by both critics and the public.

the creative process, like any other process, is a means to an end. that said, it can be very valuable indeed.

[christianm77]

Several of those ideas, e.g. #1 "with limitations" or #5 "only one interval," I'll ask students to do as a written exercise first. This is particularly helpful for students first venturing outside of classical performance, where they may be very uncomfortable playing anything that isn't written out. Once they get past that, though, your dualities, or playing one semitone out, is fairly easy, fun, and emboldens them to further experiment.

Your outline encourages free-form improvisation of any style. I was specifically focusing on improvisation within the jazz idiom, hence the difference btwn the two sets of exercises.

Delivery of these exercises would depend on the learners.

Sometimes, trying to do something and failing can be more interesting than actually getting the exercise right. Trying to play a rhythm changes solo in sevenths could well point your playing in a different direction, even though you are unlikely to be able to do this correctly first time at tempo.

In improvisation (and any creative process) what is can come from the tutor is an initial direction. At some point the process take over. That's the cool bit, for me.

With the exception of #8 all these exercises would or could take place with a conventional jazz framework (at least that is how I would practice them being a pretty straightahead guy with experience doing that kind of music). If you think about it #2 works within that because there has to be a 'wrong.' Working trying to play wrong can help you understand what is right and what is truly wrong.

[christianm77]

it's all subjective, but one might say that it's the measure of how well a work is received by both critics and the public.

the creative process, like any other process, is a means to an end. that said, it can be very valuable indeed.

Is it though? What end?

Bankruptcy perhaps? ;-)

[Lazz]

But the smaller schools??? Well, there's an old saying or two - "don't bite the hand that feeds", and "don't look a gift horse in the mouth". (Incidentally, I noticed this dynamic in two graduate engineering schools as well).

Can't figure out what you're talking about here FF.
Can you explain for me, please.
Thanks

[christianm77]

Christianm77 - but you don't have time for a lesson plan, lol.

I have several pages of exercises and quotes to keep me inspired. Cut and paste.

Quite often I copy and paste things off the forum if I like them. ;-) I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to contribute.

[BigDee62]

... all these exercises would or could take place with a conventional jazz framework

That's taking an awful lot for granted. There's a "language" of jazz - the common melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic structures that instantly tell us what we're listening to is "jazz." Most students know it when they hear it, but have absolutely no idea how to "speak" the language. They won't learn it from random twiddling - they have to consciously and explicitly study the language of jazz.

That's what my outline was intended to address.

[fumblefingers]

Is it though? What end?

Bankruptcy perhaps? ;-)

The end result, product, or deliverable of course.

bankruptcy is possible yes, lol.

im looking forward to The Revenant and the new James Bond. Those seem to demonstrate some creativity, and I rather expect that no bankruptcy will be involved.

[fumblefingers]

Can't figure out what you're talking about here FF.
Can you explain for me, please.
Thanks

supply and demand, customer service, customer SAT, pricing niche.

think of it this way. When you encounter the government, how are you treated? Like a number? Like you're taken for granted? Of course you are. A government employee is not counting on you to get paid. The tax revenues are taken, and therefore are taken for granted. But when you encounter the private sector you come into contact with people who dare not treat you that way if they expect to remain a going concern. Businesses fail every day when they don't get it right. Government is forever, or so they assume.

to be direct, big state schools are relatively affordable, and have lots of students. They can afford to weed out people because they will always have plenty of students. Private schools are expensive and are relatively small. They can't afford to adopt the same disposition toward students in many cases. There are exceptions of course (Harvard, etc).

i was in an executive engineering graduate program and one instructor chuckled that we would ALL make at least a B. Why? Because every student's education was being paid for by their employer, all of whom required that the employee earn at least a B in order to continue receiving tuition assistance. The university knew this, and was not about to lose a student. not at those prices. Money doesn't grow on trees.

clear?

[Irez87]

I always hear how Hunter and CCNY are good schools. I mean, I enjoyed my education. I learned a lot. I felt really challenged... especially in the Literature and Philosophy courses I took (Metaphysics and Epistemology was really cool, though it was more Epistemology and less Metaphysics. Hiedy, I hardly knew ye) And I met students from all over the world. They all came to CCNY because it was the cheap alternative and it was still a great education.

"The Harvard on the Hill" That was what they used to call CCNY, I feel like it is finally getting back to that point.

Best part... I can live my life without paying back crippling student loans. Fannie Mae was never around these parts **points to self**

I mean, I'd love to take a course or two at New School or NYU. The professors there are ridiculously brilliant and talented. But, I like having "money in the bank" as well...Especially because of ... life, you know?

[christianm77]

That's taking an awful lot for granted. There's a "language" of jazz - the common melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic structures that instantly tell us what we're listening to is "jazz." Most students know it when they hear it, but have absolutely no idea how to "speak" the language. They won't learn it from random twiddling - they have to consciously and explicitly study the language of jazz.

That's what my outline was intended to address.

That's not the function of these exercises. These exercises are designed to get the creative process going for players who have been studying a language (in fact this language could be anything, blues, classical, avant garde etc, although I play straight-ahead so that's how I use them) That's how I use them.

As my original suggestion - "I invite you (or anyone here) to think of 10 learning activities which could challenge or develop the creative process in improvised music."

There are other exercises to develop language. I could give you 10 of those if you wanted.

Exercises would also vary depending on the background of the student.

I have to say I did think your exercises were more language specific.

[christianm77]

Boom! Some analysis, some writing, some playing. Aimed at the young musician who is able to play a bit, but has as yet little actual jazz 'language'

1. Learn to sing a solo all the way though without the recording. Lester Young is a classic one for this. (Tristano.)
2. Learn to play a solo or a bebop head purely as a rhythm – either on your instrument or scatting. Later, try and use the same rhythm with different notes. Compare the rhythms of a Lester Young solo to those in a Parker solo, for example.
3. Take a bebop head and examine the note choices over the changes. Pay attention to things like – what arpeggios are used over what chords, use of chromatic chord tones, scales and so on. See if you can apply some of this when taking a solo over changes
4. Slow improvisation – also doubles as a creativity exercise. Set the metronome to 60-80bpm (or slower) and solo in eigth notes over a standard without a backing. Starting students can begin with chord tones and go from there. (Tristano)
5. Practice playing pick ups into chord tones on the beat – c.f. Hal Galper Forward Motion. So you might start with one note, preced it with another (perhaps a nieghbour tone) and then another until you have a steady strem of eight notes going through the changes.
6. Write a head on a chord progression of a standard song based on what you have learned. Later on learn to imrpovise on the form.
7. Write down 10 ideas on a given chord progression (a ii-V-I say) that you wouldn’t normally play, using the information that you have gleaned from you analysis and reading. When you are used to dong this you might be able to do this improvising.
8. Methods of analysis – on your own or with a group, try and see if you can come up with 10 completely diferent forms of analysis that could be used to understand a transcibed line.
9. Apply these forms of analysis to a line.
10. Practice improvising a melody in AABA form or 12 bar riff form – that is, improvise some material and repeat with variations as necessary within the form given. Changes can be free or set. For AABA, take a free bridge.

This is fun! I tell who is absolutely brilliant at coming up with cool/crazy exercises - Mike Outram (a great London based guitar player, for those who don't know him.)

I did his online course for a year and it was great fun. He had students videoing themselves working through the exercises and putting them up on youtube. It ws just a bit of shame that I didn't have time to do this along with everything else I was working on, but I got a lot of exercises and ideas out of it. Recommended for those who fancy some fresh ideas.

[Irez87]

Dee and Chris,

Both of you have some excellent suggestions. I want to revisit those ideas in my own playing. Dee, I haven't applied solfege to bebop heads yet. I want to try it with Joy Spring, but relate the syllables to F major (even the "modulations", I consider them more to be deviations(?) as, unlike classical music, in jazz, the key changes are more temporary and they often resolve to the home key).

Chris, John Abercrombie and Jim Hall often suggest the whole "solo on one string" limitation. That's actually how I broke out of the whole position prison (position playing is very important, but being locked into one position can limit your melodic content) and started playing horizontally ala Jimmy Raney and Brother Wes (or, one of the elder statesmen of jazz guitar).

[GuitarGerry]

Christian, this should be turned into a separate thread, so that it doesn't get lost (good idea BTW).

Haven't thought too much about this, but here goes:

1. Sing and play phrases simultaneously, using a single note (the tonic of the 1st chord), without backing, for a whole chorus of a standard (12 bar or AABA). If need be, just play the rhythm of the melody and try to fill in gaps in the rhythm.


2. Same thing, but call and response led by the tutor (more likely to feed pupils rhythmic phrases that are musical)


3. As above, but trade 4s with each other, trying to pick up on the rhythms of the last player


3. Same as no. 1, but this time alter the chord tone as necessary to facilitate chord changes (the 'line' remains flat/static, but adjusts to the harmony). This time through, backing should be provided.


4. Repeat last process, no backing and with a different chord tone from 1st bar.


5. Once you've gone through all the notes of the basic triad (of 1st bar's chord), combine two notes rhythmically and follow this coupling through the whole progression.


6. Now all three notes of the first triad.


7. Introduce a single passing note in the first bar and try to maintain the idea through the whole progression.


8. Introduce another passing note.


9 Crack open the tins.

10 Casually introduce into conversation that your wife doesn't understand you.

[Irez87]

Gotta leave for work but...

ha HAAAAA Geeerryy,

I practice scatting phrases at school. My coworkers noticed and thought it weird. But one of them... he moved back to Chi town (funny guy) scatted along with me!

You sacrifice a lot to play music, including your normalcy

[GuitarGerry]

Gotta leave for work but...

ha HAAAAA Geeerryy,

I practice scatting phrases at school. My coworkers noticed and thought it weird. But one of them... he moved back to Chi town (funny guy) scatted along with me!

You sacrifice a lot to play music, including your normalcy

Recently, I've been scat singing every day. Not much of a voice, but I've decided to do something about it and am working on developing it. Scatting is a good way of developing rhythmic phrases. By singing and playing at the same time, you're more likely to come out with musical/natural-sounding phrases...and rhythmic phrasing is so important IMO (hence my bias towards it in my last post). Monk (and many others of his standing) could sustain a whole chorus with a cool riff/motif alone. Don't mean a thing if...(you know the rest folks).

[christianm77]

Dee and Chris,

Both of you have some excellent suggestions. I want to revisit those ideas in my own playing. Dee, I haven't applied solfege to bebop heads yet. I want to try it with Joy Spring, but relate the syllables to F major (even the "modulations", I consider them more to be deviations(?) as, unlike classical music, in jazz, the key changes are more temporary and they often resolve to the home key).

Chris, John Abercrombie and Jim Hall often suggest the whole "solo on one string" limitation. That's actually how I broke out of the whole position prison (position playing is very important, but being locked into one position can limit your melodic content) and started playing horizontally ala Jimmy Raney and Brother Wes (or, one of the elder statesmen of jazz guitar).

Thanks!

Also Scott Henderson recommends this. Adrien Moingard talks about how gypsy jazz players learn scales along one string. It also crops up in Mick Goodrick's books. I'd say it's a good thing to practice then :-)

BTW I really like the solfege on bop heads thing - sorry if I didn't mention that. Learning bop heads in this way allows you to transpose them to any key and also, obviously, to hear what's going on harmonically... What's not to like?

Joy Spring - wow, good luck. I think it's good to solfege things on the scale of temporary modulations (like when it goes to relative minor or something for a few bars) and at the level of a whole section, but doing so for a whole modulating tune, that's tricky. You'll probably learn something from it though!