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I'm talking not so much about jazz guys. Periodically I'm asked this. Invariably I talk about the need to know wtf is going on. That it may not be necessary for you. That it's not a set of rules to tell you what you MUST DO but rather explanations how why this or that works or might not. That it doesn't hamper creativity but enhances it. That there will undoubtedly be an uncomfortable, uncoordinated period of sounding mechanical and forced but that in the end, on the other side, you once again can flow and play with pure abandon, emotion and intuition, yet know what you're doing. You have a whole new set of possibilities. That the mystery is still there but in a higher harmonic. That any style of music can be open to you. You still have to study STYLE but you aren't hampered by music itself. That it is a language and knowing language can only help and never hinder.
And those who criticize players who know theory and know what they're doing AND PLAY WELL criticize because they cannot do what you can do. So the only thing they can really do is tear it down.
What do you tell them?
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08-18-2015 08:40 PM
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Hell, don't you want to know what holds airplanes in the air? The theory of anything is a natural curiosity to me. I mean, aren't you in awe of what makes things work?
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I love the line, "It's always an advantage to know what you're doing."
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For anyone who HAS to ask that question, I keep it simple.
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It's just vocabulary - the way musicians talk about music. You have to have terminology and names for things whether, you're talking about golf swings or diets or whatever. That's very basic theory.
G to D7 . Change it to another key for the singer to sing higher. how do you arrive at that? That's basic theory.
Take it or leave it. You can get as complex as you want with it . It's about tools, not rules. Don't worry about it. When you need it or want it you can learn more about it.
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I do music at a rural church setting and have a lot of these conversations. :-)
There are a lot of amateur or lay musicians that seem to worry a lot about theory.
People also seem to be hung up on learning theory FIRST. This would be obviously bass ackwards in any other field. You learn to read WAY before you learn grammar in a complex way. Theory without context doesn't mean much. Only need to know as much as you're somewhat familiar with IMO.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-18-2015 at 09:34 PM.
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Meanwhile, can't get my music-major pianist to care ENOUGH about counting mildly complex modern rhythms. :-)
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I'm a father of two, day job, teach 15-20 lessons a week, gig once or twice a month.
My time is limited. Unless you're one of my old neighborhood buddies, I just don't have time to jam with the WILLFULLY ignorant. And if that makes me an adshole, fine.
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Sometimes it's better to know what you know, and let the person challenging you think they are right. I don't think most people would even begin to understand what theory is even if you tried to explain it, and I think that ridicule is just a manifestation of insecurity.
The older I get, the more I let people assume I'm a dolt. It's easier that way.
Lots of good answers so far.
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I teach in prisons where this comes up more often than not. It came up today. Some of these guys are never getting out. So this is an added twist. No one is interested in playing jazz. But they love it when I jam with whatever they're doing. I pick it up instantly and can kind of play their style, though I refuse to change my tuning.
Most will never have the NEED to know theory. But you know, if you're studying with me you gotta know something. I'd like to say that but the more hardcore I am the more students I might lose.
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Ah, very different.
Y'know, I'd just be real. "Knowing a bit of theory can mean I'm never lost when I'm jamming with someone else."
I give you credit. Many of the students I teach are aty school because the choice is "school, or back to jail." Not always the easiest audience to convince to learn something they don't want to...but if you can make them WANT to...the rewards are great.
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The more theory you know, the easier and more rewarding becomes your playing.
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Well they (the ones that criticize) are usually pretty terrible musicians, so that says more than words ever can.
i learned to stop caring what others think about my playing (unless I am being paid to play a certain way) a looooong time ago. The truth is I am 10000 times more critical than they can ever imagine being. Besides, most people have kindergarten ears, why would I expect them to be able to hear what it took me twenty years to hear.
The one that makes me chuckle is when people say (about jazz players) "oh it sounds like he's just running scales, he's got no feeling (just last week someone was saying this about George f@cking Benson)... The amount of musicianship it takes to make a jazz standard sound like "just running scales" is more than 80% of musicians will ever obtain.
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I got to be me. the more I try to change everything to suit someone else , especially with the way I teach or what I teach , the more miserable I am doing it. I heard a music marketing guy one time say that you hurt your teaching business when you try to be all things to all people and teach them whatever you think they'll like. Everybody else is doing all that stuff anyway.
Originally Posted by henryrobinett
There's only one you, however. When you are "yourself" you increase the value of your "brand" (your distinctives) and you're happier. I found a lot of wisdom in this idea of his.
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Me too! But my stuff is so hardcore ice had to temper it through the years.
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Say you can drive a car. You're very good at driving the car and have perfect clutch control and all that. You've only ever driven it on an oval dirt track, and you don't know any traffic rules, laws or norms. If you're plopped out in traffic out of nowhere, sure, maybe it'll go alright, because you know how to drive. Wouldn't you be more comfortable if you knew the rules, laws, and norms?
Like many say, you don't have to know theory. But knowing theory makes playing so much easier, and it also makes playing with you much easier for other people.
I also tend to offer to teach them stuff for free, but the thing with musical instruments is that everyone wants to be great, but no one seems to want to sit down with a metronome and a book for hours.
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I've always been baffled as to why some people are resistant to learning even a little theory. A person just strumming 3 chord music or playing 12 bar blues should know that the chords are the I IV and V. Someone, maybe up thread or on another, said that theory is something that should be considered on an As Needed Basis. The operative word here is
"need". You Need to know what you're doing. I love a lot of three chord music but I'm not going to even jam with some one on a C,F and G song if they don't know that F is the 4 chord and G the 5 or are dismissive of the concept. If they're old enough to know better. (I'll make an exception for some neighborhood buddies) You watch some of the great C&W strummers on 3 chord tunes and they OWN those changes. I saw the movie Nashville when it first came out and didn't really dig it overall but there's a great scene which was taken out of a video I rented some years later. Why I don't know. I rented it specifically for that scene. It's a scene of a large ensemble performing with all of the musicians sitting on risers in a tight group. In front slightly off to the side is the great Harold Bradley wearing a business suit, sitting in a chair strumming G, C and D, if I remember correctly, on a J45. It was so incredibly musical and he was obviously, to an aware viewer, the heart and soul of the whole band. Like Freddie Green. A large part of what made it so musical was that he knew the theory behind those 3 chords. It's like when Chuck sings "and you move on up just a trifle further" as he goes to the 4 chord. Brilliant. Because he had theory behind him.
I didn't say it originally but I'll say it again: Theory is descriptive not prescriptive.
And don't get me started on piano players that took lessons for 8 years as kids and have continued to play into their sixties and can sight read darn near anything but can't get off the staff and comp a simple tune from the chord symbols
or even construct a Cmaj triad. What's up with THAT??Last edited by mrcee; 08-19-2015 at 09:48 AM.
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08-19-2015, 09:42 AM #16destinytot GuestI think that, regardless of context or circumstances, approaches to (general) education/schooling/study give most of the meaning to the question 'why theory?' If it's a reaction, the 'student' isn't ready. Originally Posted by mrcee
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Theory is like cold water. It makes your mojo shrink.
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Usually the lack of any idea of musical knowledge shows up when somebody can't do something simple, like follow the notes in a simple diatonic scale.
I just use the example to point out "That's why you need to understand the basics of theory, because then you'd realize that it's just a ____ scale".
The question, "Do I really need to know all of the notes on the neck?" was posted on another forum. The fact that the question even arose is incomprehensible to me. And don't get me started about people not being able to transpose.
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Played in a band with a know-no-theory-but despotic-rhythm-guitarist/band leader. As we were practicing "Black Magic Woman," he insisted on playing all minor chords. When I tried to tell him that the A was not minor, he responded, "Major, minor! What the hell's the difference!? It's an A isn't it?!" and continued playing his A minor.
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When you hear players like Joe Pass and Jimmy Bruno say that they're not big theory guys (could have fooled me)
you realize just how weak some of these aggressive no nothings really are. I'm a live and let live kind of guy who deeply considers everyone's way of thinking and living to be valid, if maybe only for them, but I've gotten rude with more than one wanna be rock star (you know the type. Owns several guitars, hangs out on TGP. Got all the T shirts, ball caps and bumper stickers and FX, and GFs) who didn't know Bb from J#. Doesn't know what key a C, F and G tune is in. Got the hairdo and the clothes and thinks they're a "lead" guitar player. Or maybe "Rhythm Lead", whatever the fudge that means. Anyhoo I'll tell these cats to their faces to find another hobby like stamp collecting or take up golf. I've been around for a while and have seen this whole 'rock guitar' thing take shape since the mid 60s and imo it has bastardized the instrument. On more than just a theoretical and technique level. (There are plenty of fine players obviously). There was dismay posted in another thread concerning Clapton's racist diatribe. It was the first I'd heard of it and I was disgusted and I live in Texas, USA where I have never heard racial slurs more ignorant and foolish. (and there's plenty of racism in the northern states.) And being drunk is no excuse. He was sober enough to get on stage and perform without falling over. So if people like that are the heroes of more than one generation of guitarists it's no wonder that they don't have respect for anything including basic music theory.
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Me too! I believe that they are both bigger theory guys than even they realize. Originally Posted by mrcee
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At least he knows some theory, he managed to get an A in the chord. Originally Posted by rsclosson
Last edited by grahambop; 08-19-2015 at 12:25 PM.
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Theory helps me play what I hear. If I'm on a Dm7 chord, and I can visualize the chord tones and extensions on the fingerboard, then I can easily find the notes I need. It also helps me find the content I will play : if I'm playing on an unfamiliar progression, I will have a hard time hearing some interesting things. When that happens, I can always use the chord tones to find some lines that make the changes stand out.
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theory arises not in playing but in describing playing - the vast majority of the absurd things that are said about it are said because people really are able to confuse properties of the description with properties of the thing described
if you follow this simple and very important thought through you'll get to the following truths:
there are no such things as scales and arpeggios etc. etc. - or rather - it is in attempting to describe music that these concepts become necessary (not in attempting to play the music)
it is utterly absurd to say - as many many many jazz players do (in fact this is the orthodoxy) - that playing jazz is a matter of playing the scales and arpeggios that go with the chord that is sounding at the time.
if you want to push things far enough - there are no such things as chords either (find a G m 7 in bill (or gill) evans - or in the arrangements of nelson riddle!). even the idea of a chord is an abstraction from the music not a part of it. (are there chords in beethoven's string quartets? etc.)
it may well be that some of us learn how to describe the music as a way in to learning how to play it (i did). but that is not ALL anyone does. far more important - whether you realize it or not - is learning to sing the songs, or the solos of your heroes etc. etc.
if anyone approaches the music exclusively through learning scales and arpeggios and then learning to fit them together with other scales and arpeggios really fast - they are going to play so badly that it might well be right to say that they are not really playing at all.
there's the music - then there's our attempts to describe it. the music is non verbal (consists of notes and rhythms not words) the description is verbal. that's more different than a mountain is from a car. but people really do confuse them absolutely all the time.
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08-19-2015, 01:37 PM #25destinytot GuestThis reminds me of the excellent avocados I bought at the market today; a certain orthodoxy would probably have me beat them to a pulp. Originally Posted by Groyniad
Last edited by destinytot; 08-19-2015 at 01:47 PM. Reason: typo
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