Playing in Thirds - What Does it Mean?

[RickRickMeister]

I'm a bit confused as to what it means exactly to "play in thirds".

Using the key go G, the notes are G, B and G (1st, 3rd, 5th and 8th). How is this playing in "thirds"? Can someone explain? Thanks!

[jckoto3]

Playing a note and another note a 3rd above it. E.g. in the case of G Major: G-B (in TAB: xx54xx), A-C (xx75xx), B-D (xx97xx), C-E (x.x.10.9.x.x), etc... He also explains that in the lower register of the guitar, the interval of a 3rd (32xxx) can sound muddy so he raises the 3rd an octave to the 10th e.g. G-B (3xx4xx), A-C (5xx5xx), B-D (7xx7xx), C-E (8xx9xx), etc... Note that a 10th is still harmonically the same as a 3rd, just an octave higher.

If someone says to "play in 3rds" they might mean 3rds or 10ths depending on context, but if they say "play in 10ths" they mean specifically a 3rd an octave higher.

It's a simple and effective way of harmonizing a line since it conveys essential harmonic information while being easy to play, which, if desired, leaves an opportunity to add other notes.

[jckoto3]

Also, the part of the video I watched, he was talking about playing the notes simultaneously, but in practice they could be played sequentially e.g. G B A C B D C E etc...

[Steve Z]

Great video and info here. Thanks for starting the thread.

[RickRickMeister]

Thanks. I think I got it!

[JAR5]

Playing scales in thirds as described in Taylor’s video is fairly straightforward and effective. Unfortunately, it's not as straightforward as memorizing the position of the 3^rd relative to each note and simply applying that position.

Even more unfortunately it seems to get very difficult if one decides one would like to play thirds (or tenths, or any consistent interval) to a melody line—say to the notes of the ballad ‘Misty’. The only obvious fact seems to be that all the thirds must be notes in the signature scale. (However, it only ‘seems’ obvious, since knowing the interval relative to a note not in the signature scale—say D# while playing in C—is problematic.)

Are there some shortcuts one can apply to quickly apply thirds to a melody line?

[Jonah]

Playing scales in thirds as described in Taylor’s video is fairly straightforward and effective. Unfortunately, it's not as straightforward as memorizing the position of the 3^rd relative to each note and simply applying that position.

Even more unfortunately it seems to get very difficult if one decides one would like to play thirds (or tenths, or any consistent interval) to a melody line—say to the notes of the ballad ‘Misty’. The only obvious fact seems to be that all the thirds must be notes in the signature scale. (However, it only ‘seems’ obvious, since knowing the interval relative to a note not in the signature scale—say D# while playing in C—is problematic.)

Are there some shortcuts one can apply to quickly apply thirds to a melody line?

I do not see any shortcuts here... there are only two 3rds major and monor... and this kind of playing to me is more about praticing orientation.

I mean you learn to play 3rds this way so that you would be able to play a 3rd over 7th if you need for example... as kind of step.
But the choice of a quality of 3rd comes from understanding harmony.

if you E as a third above C play over D-7 chord. You should understand that it is 9th in D-7.... (or any other relations system)

If you use scales or key reference... you have to understand relative keys anyway to play like this.
Otherwise you will not identify complete chord correctly (or relative scale)...

in Misty even before you get to the bridge you'll have at least 4 keys to consider...

The tune key is Eb major.

Bb-7 in the 2nd bar is II in Abmajor... so to play the correct 3rd you should either play it respectively to Ab major scale, or Bb Dorian scale, or complete Bb-7(9,11,13) chord arpeggio...

[christianm77]

Also, the part of the video I watched, he was talking about playing the notes simultaneously, but in practice they could be played sequentially e.g. G B A C B D C E etc...

Yes. I use lines based on thirds a lot.

Thirds are very much worth practicing.

[rintincop]

3rds are like 6ths

[Jonah]

3rds are like 6ths

They are octavic inversions... if you mean that

[rlrhett]

To the OP, you should understand that this is a teaser on his course in Artist Works. There are about a dozen such videos in a series. Also, it is in the context of playing as a solo guitar instrument. What you may call "chord-melody", although he very much doesn't like that label because he doesn't think of it as "melody" + a "chord". This isn't a method for soloing, per se.

That said, I don't necessarily recommend that you go out an enroll in the course ($240 per year). Martin Taylor is a GREAT player, is super nice person, and is surprisingly interested in the students. Unfortunately that does not make him a GREAT teacher. The actual "method" part of his course is very light. I've gone through those basic dozen videos several times. Then I go to his arrangements. Each time I realize he is doing a lot he doesn't talk about.

For example, one thing I finally realized is that he is surrounding the melody by his "tenths" harmony, not just putting it below the melody. If you look at almost all "chord-melody" material out there you will see often stated that step one is to take the melody and transpose it so that you have it on the top treble strings so you can place a chord below it. MT will often put the melody in a middle voice between the root and the third, letting the melody be the 6th, b6th, #5, b7th, etc. NOWHERE does he address that specifically, but if you watch carefully you see that is what he does a lot. In fact, he trades off between that middle voice and a treble voice, each taking the main role of melody or harmonic extension as suits him. Again, ZERO discussion despite apparently being central to his thinking.

Most of the course is him inviting you to transcribe a couple dozen of his arrangements with little discussion other than, "so here I do this... See?" No, I don't always see. I don't think it is because he is deliberately trying to be mysterious, ala Pat Martino. I just don't think he is very good a breaking down what he is doing into words or instruction. The course would almost be better if it was someone else presenting his material and then him doing the video exchanges.

That said, his solo finger style guitar is arguably the best of any living player. He rejects the Conti style "chord+melody" paying, and rather simplifies the harmony into a bass note + tenth and uses his other fingers to play melody + counter-melody above and between the simplified harmony. Brilliant if you can pull it off. I'm nowhere near there yet.

A last note on MT is that I saw an interview where he says he started with "chord-melody". Plug and chug as one person on this board called it. He was interviewing to play with some elder established musician (can't remember who now) who told him his playing was "boring" and proceeded to play something with four moving lines. He was so blown away he decided he had to learn to play that way and abandoned thinking of just melody + chord.

Personally, I am still mining the plug-and-chug of Conti/Vignola (and now Greg O'Rourke with his new book). I just don't have the familiarity with the material or the fretboard to be improvising melody + countermelody at the same time I am playing interesting/non-static basic 10ths based harmony. However, once I am a little more comfortable with that material I can see that MT is where I want to go.

[christianm77]

Playing scales in thirds as described in Taylor’s video is fairly straightforward and effective. Unfortunately, it's not as straightforward as memorizing the position of the 3^rd relative to each note and simply applying that position.

Even more unfortunately it seems to get very difficult if one decides one would like to play thirds (or tenths, or any consistent interval) to a melody line—say to the notes of the ballad ‘Misty’. The only obvious fact seems to be that all the thirds must be notes in the signature scale. (However, it only ‘seems’ obvious, since knowing the interval relative to a note not in the signature scale—say D# while playing in C—is problematic.)

Are there some shortcuts one can apply to quickly apply thirds to a melody line?

Minor thirds always work for chromatic notes.

[NSJ]

Minor thirds always work for chromatic notes.

Yes, you can also always harmonize each note of a blues scale by both a m3 and a m6 below it, instantly creating a 3 note voicing that can flesh out a line.

[christianm77]

Sometimes major thirds sound better when descending.

[JAR5]

If you navigate in thirds, getting to chord tones by threading thirds in a million different combinations, you will always be melodic, not just playing scales. For a beginning jazz student, I might have them play a whole solo in thirds. It will stop them from being too scalar.
Charles McPherson https://ethaniverson.com/interview-with-charles-mcpherson/

The playing thirds issue's suddenly gotten quite complex. I raised it in response to a quote from Charles McPherson, assuming it could be approached as a beginner, and hoping to be able to adopt it as an exercise.

Can someone address thirds relative to the quote and using 'Misty' as an example?

[Vladan]

Here you have 3rds, or 6ths, in an be-bop blues ... from 1:34 ...

[christianm77]

The playing thirds issue's suddenly gotten quite complex. I raised it in response to a quote from Charles McPherson, assuming it could be approached as a beginner, and hoping to be able to adopt it as an exercise.

Can someone address thirds relative to the quote and using 'Misty' as an example?

I dunno about misty but I was planning to do a video on this.

But I'll take your example:

Misty (A section) first bit. Barry Harris, the teenage way.

| Eb | Bbm7 Eb7 | Abmaj7 | Abm7 Db7 |
| Eb Cm7 | Fm7 Bb7 | G7 C7 | F7 Bb7 |

An important bit of prior knowledge in this case is to recognise that maj7 chords are BORING and LAME and SUCK major scales are also BORING and LAME and SUCK. One or two notes from the arpeggio or a related arpeggio (such as iii) will be fine for major.

Therefore we will heavily focus on playing on the ii-V's only resolving to the land of BOREDOM and LAMENESS and SUCKAGE at the last minute. EVERYONE knows what a FRICKIN' BORING ASS major chord sounds like, so the main thing you need to do in functional tune is set up resolutions into them.

Now ii-V's are COMPLICATED and I am SO TIRED, so we just strip them down to the V's. Actually lets get rid of all the minor sevenths (which we can do in this tune) because they are ALMOST as BAD as major 7th. (OMG the minor 7th is a BORING sounding chord.)

| Eb | Eb7 | Ab | Db7 |
| Eb | Bb7 | G7 C7 | F7 Bb7 |

The bit at end is just a turnaround. It's a bit COMPLICATED and EXTRA, so if we don't fancy playing all those dominants with their SILLY and POINTLESS cycle of fourths relationship. We'll just go Eb Bb7, which is the most basic turnaround. It's fine provided your piano player isn't a KNOBHEAD.

| Eb | Eb7 | Ab | Db7 |
| Eb | Bb7 | Eb | Bb7 |

But OMG that is so VANILLA. It's so BOOOORIIINGGG.

Answer - don't play arpeggios of these chords. Play scales, but play them with some melodic and harmonic interest.

Well this is where the thirds thing comes in. See, if you use the mixolydian/dominant scale on each of these chords, you have quite a lot of room to make up melodies. But if you just go up and down you'll sound like frickin' Al DiMeola. No-one wants that. Well no-one in their right mind.

Also making up melodies isn't as simple as it SOUNDS.

So, we need to make scales sound like music. This is where thirds are a great ally. Just miss out some notes, basically, as you go up the scale.

Take these figures:

1 3 2 4 3 5 4 6 5 b7 etc (thirds)
1 3 5 2 4 6 3 5 7 4 6 1 5 b7 2 etc (triads - two thirds stuck together)
1 3 5 b7 2 4 6 1 3 5 b7 2 etc (chords - three thirds stuck together)

That's better. Now I like to connect these things by going up down up down, sounds better to me:

1 3 4 2 3 5 6 4 etc (a third, up a step, down a third, up a step, up a third etc)
1 3 5 6 4 2 3 5 b7 etc (up a third, up a third, up a step, down a third, down a third, up a step etc.)

Now the biggy, the stack of thirds.

1 3 5 b7 2 4 6

Every note of the scale, but in a much more interesting order. Like the scale it keeps going around. You can do a few things to this. You can start the full stack on whatever notes you like. This one is very common, starting on 5:

5 b7 2 4 6 1 3 5

Gives you the m11 - what I call the Wes-peggio.

Chop it up into chords which gives you the 'family of four':

1 3 5 b7 - I7
3 5 b7 2 -IIIm7b5
5 b7 2 4 - Vm7
b7 2 4 6 - bVIImaj7

You can also add in lower chromatic neighbours wherever you like.

If you get bored of the dominant sound (there's a lot more in it than you'd think) then you can use tritone subs, or raise the 4th to a #4. Or do both.

Or, very common in Charlie Parker, use the backdoor dominant, where you resolve the dominant chord up a step. We have an exmaple of this in Misty, bar 4-5: Db7 to Eb. This always sounds great.

Now go and have fun. And listen to Wes!

[jasaco]

I'm glad you explained what is BORING, LAME, and SUCKS. I'm still absorbing the culture of jazz and need to get my prejudices in order...

[NSJ]

Gives you the m11 - what I call the Wes-peggio.

Chop it up into chords which gives you the 'family of four':

1 3 5 b7 - I7
3 5 b7 2 -IIIm7b5
5 b7 2 4 - Vm7
b7 2 4 6 - bVIImaj7

Sheryl Bailey teaches these as arpeggios associated with dominant 7th bebop scale (mixo with added M7 passing tone):

I of the scale: dominant 7 arp
iii of the scale: m7b5
V of the scale: m7 arp
b7 of the scale: M7 arp