Jazz, flat keys, and guitar players

[henryrobinett]

What's the typical mindset of a pianist? I thought piano music was all over the place, as far as keys go.

The pianists I play with are also more comfortable playing in flat keys, because that's mainly what they do. I think it's mainly psychological. Also reading in sharps is strange. Reading in E and B is awkward. Also playing in C can be awkward because your hands and fingers are right up on the keys, not offset by the black keys.

[jster]

I believe in playing any tune in any key, as you sometimes have to work with horn players or vocalists who favor certain keys.

Aren't the vocalists the single biggest factor in the whole key choice business? A typical male pop singer goes from the A (string) up to the F on the E string. So that is a b13 range. If your write a song that has a range of a 9th, then he can only do it in 7 keys.

And if you are writing church music, you have to work from C to C or maybe C to D. Or else the congregation won't be able to sing it.

As a vocalist, however, I find that some songs just sound brighter in keys like Bb or Db. Hard to explain why. And I love playing in F, too.

I don't know about those keys specifically, but I have a tentative theory about the qualities of certain keys. I think that people find D bright because the melodies that are sung in D are more suitable for women and children. F on the other hand is more manly because F melodies tend to be more suitable for male voices.

[ecj]

Here's my take:

1) It's equally common for R&B and Motown tunes to be in keys like Eb, Bb or Db. Probably due to a combo of horns reading, and also for the singers. There's a reason Hendrix tuned his guitar down a half step. For his voice.

2) "Guitar-friendly" keys are still a bitch to read in on the guitar. Maybe not G or D, but I hate reading A, E or, god forbid, B.

3) None of this matters anyway, because if you play with a singer the keys are going to be all over the place.

[ronjazz]

Every accomplished player can play in any key, that's what being accomplished is. I long ago stopped cowtowing to horn players, pointing out that they were being paid to play at a professional level. Besides, if the rockers can do it (Clarence Clemons, anyone?), certainly the high-and-mighty jazzers should be able to. It's only difficult to read in sharp keys because people AVOID THEM, thinking that they're difficult.

Note Phil Woods' solo on Billy Joel's Just The Way You Are, for example. He's playing in his key of B, and doesn't appear to be having much difficulty. In fact, playing standards in keys other than the original will open lots of interesting doors. I like to have tenor players do Someday My Prince Will Come as a 4/4 funk tune in F, it makes the horn sound really huge, and they end up enjoying it thoroughly.

[pingu]

Allow me to rephrase my question. Have any of you tried alternate/different tunings to deal with charts written for horns, etc. and if you have what has your experience been? Is it easier, more difficult, if so for either, why and what others steps have you tried to improve on it or what tips would you offer to the uninitiated or inexperienced with jazz? I'm just starting to learn jazz guitar and I'm trying to learn from the experiences of others like yourselves. Thanks.

Horn players don't like sharp keys much
I wouldn't tune to Eb because its just another layer of BS your head will have to compute
when reading charts

Playing the typical jazz guitar sound you don't want a very jangly-bright
open string type sound anyway generally

Well except Bill Frizell , Ted Green type players but even they don't tune slack I believe

Jimi tuned to Eb for his voice ...... he was a Voodoo Chile you know ;0)

[wizard3739]

I would never consider a different tuning. I did play a 7-string for a few months with the new lower string tuned to an A below the E string. I don't see any good reason for changing a tuning which took me so many years to become comfortable with.

wiz

[Stevebol]

Here's my take:

1) It's equally common for R&B and Motown tunes to be in keys like Eb, Bb or Db. Probably due to a combo of horns reading, and also for the singers. There's a reason Hendrix tuned his guitar down a half step. For his voice.

2) "Guitar-friendly" keys are still a bitch to read in on the guitar. Maybe not G or D, but I hate reading A, E or, god forbid, B.

3) None of this matters anyway, because if you play with a singer the keys are going to be all over the place.

I believed the story that Hendrix didn't like to sing and didn't start till about 1966-67. Read somewhere he was put on the spot and asked to sing by Chas Chandler. I don't remember playing along with his pre-Experience records very well because it was so long. It would take a little research to determine if he was tuning down pre-Experience.

This doesn't add up. It sounds like it's Hendrix singing from 1965. It's in Bb which would put him in B if he was tuning down. I can't pick up anything that indicates he's tuning down, as in obvious use of the low E string.

It would help to listen to the old King Curtis records. Even then it's hard to say when he started tuning down. Maybe he tuned down occasionally?

Edit;
This is interesting. He tuned down a whole step with Band of Gypsies? Jeez.
http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/a.../t-482648.html

[Stevebol]

I would never consider a different tuning. I did play a 7-string for a few months with the new lower string tuned to an A below the E string. I don't see any good reason for changing a tuning which took me so many years to become comfortable with.

wiz

It's not worth the trouble especially if you play jazz or something close to it. There might be a slight advantage tone-wise and it's easier to bend the strings but the confusion it causes with transposing isn't worth the trouble.

[wizard3739]

It's not worth the trouble especially if you play jazz or something close to it. There might be a slight advantage tone-wise and it's easier to bend the strings but the confusion it causes with transposing isn't worth the trouble.

exactly!

[ecj]

It would help to listen to the old King Curtis records. Even then it's hard to say when he started tuning down. Maybe he tuned down occasionally?

Edit;
This is interesting. He tuned down a whole step with Band of Gypsies? Jeez.
http://www.sputnikmusic.com/forums/a.../t-482648.html

Not sure about the historical stuff. If you're singing, there's a huge difference between trying to hit a high G and a high F. Tuning down has serious benefits for a singer/guitarist.

I've never believed in the "different keys for different moods" thing. Maybe I just can't hear it. I think it's more of a case of picking keys that fit the instruments' range that you are writing for (voice, violin, guitar, etc.), or even just the range in general for something like piano. I'd be really interested to see if people can tell the difference in some kind of blind test.

I usually transpose every song I play unless the original key was a fit, because of my singing. Basically, whatever the range of the melody is dictates where I play it in. Having listened to a lot of vocal jazz, the keys are just all over the place. There's no rhyme or reason, just the singer's best comfort area. I try to find keys that let me use open strings and sing in a comfortable range.

Someone could go to my soundcloud page and listen to a few of the standards. See if you can tell which ones have been transposed and what the effect is without using your guitar. I'd be very interested in the outcome.

[Stevebol]

^^^

I hear ya. I had trouble hitting a G consistently. F# I could do.

[Conman]

I learned playing in G and D but now I love love playing in the key of B flat I just like the sound it gives when trying to play smooth jazz and the uniqueness of it. most other styles will not play in B flat much at all except for a little blues and I love blues jazz fusion.

[RudyWarren]

can you guys play a song by iphone music app? I really have interesting to know some key ways to work it out

[targuit]

Interesting point about selecting the right key(s) to play a song. Considerations for me include vocal range and how the fingering plays in an arrangement in terms of the melody. Lately I've been looking more to the Nat King Cole style comfortable vocal range approach.

I do tend to hear different qualities in different keys. Sometimes I think the flat keys have a certain brightness, especially in terms of the vocal. The other night I was playing along to an Ella Fitzgerald recording of Take a Chance on Love, if I recall the title, in the key of Ab, which is perhaps the key I use least frequently.

Jay

[rrbasic]

Flat keys are common ground, it's where we meet.