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Ok- Yeah. I like these chords "vanilla" or wildly extended with the use of the characteristic tones, etc. That's all dependent on the given genre and the moment at hand. I think taste plays a big role. I try to find the level of harmonic complexity that "fits" the best to my ears. So far so good... I hope.
Originally Posted by Reg
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06-07-2012 06:26 PM
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Hey JP...
I'm basically only aware of two general uses of characteristic pitches,
1) Use of CP "in" chords to function as modal cadence, chords with CP resolve to chords without. Tension / Release. There are a few different systems that have their own set of practice guide lines.
2) Use of CP "in" chords to function as Tonic. The CP becomes the resolving aspect of modal cadence. Lack of defining character of mode becomes tension. Same thing, a few systems of usage.
Somewhat more relevant with composition as compared to playing.
I also trust my ears, but am always listening...
Reg
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Good points. Thanks for the input. Originally Posted by Reg
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am i allowed to be a devil's advocate in a thread referencing a book with my name on it? here goes:
1) i believe that any chord may resolve to any other chord.
2) i believe that what jeff was trying to do is categorize the relative strength (and conversely, weakness) of specific modal progressions with respect to triads and seventh chords
3) the method for doing so was twofold: a) by an analysis of the actual scale tones and intervals involved and b) by listening...
i'd like to make a more global approach. let's say for example we put a couple of simple examples on the table:
G Am
*could be dorian
*could be aeolian
but what about:
C Eb
there is no single diatonic (major) scale that comprises all of the necessary tones; therefore, i would not categorize the progression as modal. but there is most certainly a resolving tendency between the two chords.
not to wag the dog here, but doesn't this last situation point out the the seemingly simple modal progression G Am (bVII i, gamma cadence) may not necessarily be treated as modal at all?
in other words, G lydian A phrygian is certainly a possibility and i'd be loathe to suggest otherwise. sure, if a specific mode is on the table then you know; however, i see chord charts all the time and i really don't like limiting my options from the git go:
Bbmaj7 Am7 looks phrygian doesn't it; however, it's the last thing i would do, as the Am9's B natural sounds just plain lovely to me as a targeted tone of resolution.
see jerry jennings "bossa de hot sauce" in the following for a real nice latin tune with this prog:
How to Read Guitar Music Studio Charts | Guitar Sheet Music for Beginners | How to Read Guitar Music
some of the more obvious modal choices:
C D/C or C Bm/C (lydian)
Cm Db/C or Cm Bbm/C (phrygian)
F/C G/C C or Dm/C Em/C C (ionian)
Ab/C Bb/C Cm or Fm/C Gm/C Cm (aeolian)
Cm F/C or Cm Dm/C (dorian)
C Bb/C or C Gm/C (mixolydian)
Cm G/C (harmonic minor or melodic minor)
C Fm/C (harmonic major or fifth mode melodic minor, referred to by more than one source as melodic major)
and i've also been taught that a non modal progression such as C Eb best be played as two diatonic scales, as close together as possible along the circle of fifths as to have as little change as necessary during the change:
C Eb
C mixolydian (one flat) Eb lydian (two flats)
C D E F G A Bb C, C D Eb F G A Bb C
because of two of the above situations in particular, C Eb (where no single mode is sufficient) and Am Bb (where a logical extension to the Am9 compels me to use two modes) i must freely admit that i do not use a modal approach to chords in groups, as there are just too many other considerations.
i know that the presence of the tritone was a factor in the analysis of modal progressions; for example, diminished triads were considered weak in this regard as they tend to resolve to a chord other than the modal tonic. another factor was the presence of the tritone between the two chords thus strengthening the resolution to the modal tonic such as mixolydian's Bb C or Bb D F to C E G.
in any event, i assure you that jeff had spent many hours listening to each progression for consideration in his analysis. these are some of the issues i recall discussing quite some time ago (i remember that stepwise vs tertiary vs circle progression root movement was also a factor) and since it was so long ago i don't remember all of the particulars...
my view is as always: season to taste; use what is useful and don't necessarily toss the rest as much as save on the back burner for future consideration. i say this because i had the same feelings initially regarding devices i use all the time now, such as chromatic side-slipping, quartal planing and altered harmonies (and melodies) in general.
don't mean to speak for jeff either, as he is certainly capable of doing so for himself
$0.02Last edited by dogbite; 06-09-2012 at 10:24 PM.
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This is new... Posting from gig, hey Dogbite ...
Sure we can play and call anything, anything... But generally when we imply modal we change the notes we choose to have functional relationships, to define our tonal system... In the case of G going to A-, there are no characteristic pitches... So we are either implying or modal tonality has already been established.
With your example of C to Eb, modal interchange ie very common with jazz practice of using modal systems, so polymodal concept isn't required, but is fun. not diatonic but very easily usable as modal organizing concept.
And I totally agree in jazz all the concepts are being used simultaneously... All the time.
What do you hear as method of implying modal cadence... Back to work.
Reg
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Cool additions! Thanks DB. I was just trying to throw the diatonic hit-you-over-the-head modal cadences from your book... This adds a lot of options and complexity, but that is the truth- no jazz music fits into such a small box. There are lots of boxes and vast areas to play in, so to speak. I dig it all and find inspiration in these places. Originally Posted by dogbite
am i allowed to be a devil's advocate in a thread referencing a book with my name on it? here goes:
1) i believe that any chord may resolve to any other chord.
2) i believe that what jeff was trying to do is categorize the relative strength (and conversely, weakness) of specific modal progressions with respect to triads and seventh chords
3) the method for doing so was twofold: a) by an analysis of the actual scale tones and intervals involved and b) by listening...
i'd like to make a more global approach. let's say for example we put a couple of simple examples on the table:
G Am
*could be dorian
*could be aeolian
but what about:
C Eb
there is no single diatonic (major) scale that comprises all of the necessary tones; therefore, i would not categorize the progression as modal. but there is most certainly a resolving tendency between the two chords.
not to wag the dog here, but doesn't this last situation point out the the seemingly simple modal progression G Am (bVII i, gamma cadence) may not necessarily be treated as modal at all?
in other words, G lydian A phrygian is certainly a possibility and i'd be loathe to suggest otherwise. sure, if a specific mode is on the table then you know; however, i see chord charts all the time and i really don't like limiting my options from the git go:
Bbmaj7 Am7 looks phrygian doesn't it; however, it's the last thing i would do, as the Am9's B natural sounds just plain lovely to me as a targeted tone of resolution.
see jerry jennings "bossa de hot sauce" in the following for a real nice latin tune with this prog:
How to Read Guitar Music Studio Charts | Guitar Sheet Music for Beginners | How to Read Guitar Music
some of the more obvious modal choices:
C D/C or C Bm/C (lydian)
Cm Db/C or Cm Bbm/C (phrygian)
F/C G/C C or Dm/C Em/C C (ionian)
Ab/C Bb/C Cm or Fm/C Gm/C Cm (aeolian)
Cm F/C or Cm Dm/C (dorian)
C Bb/C or C Gm/C (mixolydian)
Cm G/C (harmonic minor or melodic minor)
C Fm/C (harmonic major or fifth mode melodic minor, referred to by more than one source as melodic major)
and i've also been taught that a non modal progression such as C Eb best be played as two diatonic scales, as close together as possible along the circle of fifths as to have as little change as necessary during the change:
C Eb
C mixolydian (one flat) Eb lydian (two flats)
C D E F G A Bb C, C D Eb F G A Bb C
because of two of the above situations in particular, C Eb (where no single mode is sufficient) and Am Bb (where a logical extension to the Am9 compels me to use two modes) i must freely admit that i do not use a modal approach to chords in groups, as there are just too many other considerations.
i know that the presence of the tritone was a factor in the analysis of modal progressions; for example, diminished triads were considered weak in this regard as they tend to resolve to a chord other than the modal tonic. another factor was the presence of the tritone between the two chords thus strengthening the resolution to the modal tonic such as mixolydian's Bb C or Bb D F to C E G.
in any event, i assure you that jeff had spent many hours listening to each progression for consideration in his analysis. these are some of the issues i recall discussing quite some time ago (i remember that stepwise vs tertiary vs circle progression root movement was also a factor) and since it was so long ago i don't remember all of the particulars...
my view is as always: season to taste; use what is useful and don't necessarily toss the rest as much as save on the back burner for future consideration. i say this because i had the same feelings initially regarding devices i use all the time now, such as chromatic side-slipping, quartal planing and altered harmonies (and melodies) in general.
don't mean to speak for jeff either, as he is certainly capable of doing so for himself
$0.02
Hell, one of my favorite songs that I wrote a couple of yeas ago is a string of unprepared modulations up a M3! It's a slow, watered-down Giant Steps in reverse and in 3/4 to boot. The VOICE LEADING and will of the musicians make it work- and it does (and I'm sure we agree there1).
"Make it work" is a good MO, IMHO.
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an analysis of modal chord progressions in involving major chords only in addition to the modal tonic triad:
let's do this in C, where the tritone components, referred to in Modalogy as "essential tones," are B and F.
are these what has been referred to here as characteristic tones???
F G/F define lydian very well because the B and the F are split between the F and G triads:
C-----D
A-----B
F-----G
conversely, the mixolydian mode may be defined similarly:
G F/G
D-----C
B-----A
G-----F
the same logic applies to dorian:
Dm G/D
A-----D
F-----B
D-----G
as well as phrygian:
Em F/E
B-----C
G-----A
E-----F
since the tritone components B and F are not included in the tonic triads of the ionian and aeolian modes, it takes three triads to establish them, without of course using the diminished triad:
C F/C G/C
G-----C-----D
E-----A-----B
C-----F-----G
Am F/A G/A
E-----C-----D
C-----A-----B
A-----F-----G
this represents some of the thinking behind the list produced here:
C D/C or C Bm/C (lydian)
Cm Db/C or Cm Bbm/C (phrygian)
F/C G/C C or Dm/C Em/C C (ionian)
Ab/C Bb/C Cm or Fm/C Gm/C Cm (aeolian)
Cm F/C or Cm Dm/C (dorian)
C Bb/C or C Gm/C (mixolydian)
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I'm thinking the notes on pages 159 on in Modalogy are the characteristic notes Reg is referring to, more or less (aka defining notes, as you called them).
PS I like to think globally and locally in performance. Like blending harmonically general with specific parts. It often changes on a section to section basis to find what really "works" for me. Both are good. Also bottom-up and top-down thinking is useful. Attack it from all angles!Last edited by JonnyPac; 06-10-2012 at 04:04 PM.
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The characteristic notes or pitches are what distinguishes the mode. Some make reference to distinguishing as compared to Major and Minor and don't include Ionian and Aeolian.
Ionian...nat.4
Dorian....nat.6
Phrygian....b2
Lydian....#4
Mixolydian....b7
Aeolian...b6
Locrian, because of location of character pitch, b5 being a chord tone is not used as much... implies major minor harmony too strongly.
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Yup. Good stuff.
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off topic:
???
in the jazz minor (melodic minor, ascending form) there are two sets of tritones as well as a diminished fourth:
tritone 1: b3 - 6
tritone 2: 4 - 7
diminished fourth: 7 - b3
so might one say that the defining tones of melodic minor are manifest in its dual tritone?
mode 2 melodic minor, essentially a hybrid dorian/phrygian scale:
1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7
tritone 1: b2 - 5
tritone 2: b3 - 6
diminished fourth: 6 - b2
mode 4 melodic minor, lydian dominant, essentially a hybrid lydian/mixolydian scale:
1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7
tritone 1: b7 - 3
tritone 2: 1 - #4
diminished fourth: #4 - b7
mode 5 melodic minor, aeolian dominant, essentially a hybrid mixolydian/aeolian scale:
1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7
tritone 1: b6 - 2
tritone 2: b7 - 3
diminished fourth: 3 - b6
mode 6 melodic minor, aeolian diminished, essentially a hybrid aeolian/locrian scale:
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
tritone 1: b5 - 1
tritone 2: b6 - 2
diminished fourth: 2 - b5
okay, sorry jonny i'm just playin' around here, i don't really think this way
i'll bet that neapolitan scale gets a little weirder than this but i'll leave it alone for now. here's an exercise tho:
play sixth mode melodic minor for minor chords. CST gone mad...Last edited by dogbite; 06-11-2012 at 01:31 PM.
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Besides using MM in typical Major/Minor functional harmony methods... many jazz players also use MM in somewhat of a Blue Notes style.
Any note, (no avoid notes), or any chordal application, can be and is used once we introduce or begin to use MM as note or chordal source. Non-functional usage. Similar to how blue notes can be used to influence melodic and harmonic concepts or systems of organization.
Typically once you introduce MM, example could be use of sub-V... Db13 instead of G7 going or implied to be going to C something. You have access to any chordal structure pulled from Ab MM.
So the sub or Db7#11 is 1st step
The access to other tritone or G7altered is 2nd step, (sub of sub)
The access to Ab MM is 3rd step.
You can obviously continue development through relationships and get access to pretty much any set of notes... but at least you have an organizational system to help hold together, which is basically what dogbite appears to be doing...
The -7b5 from 6th degree of MM is very standard access chord for MM, through Modal interchange. Somewhat reverse to more common use of access through V chord of II V.
I use MM and the different levels of relationships to help organize my use of Blue notes... helps not sound like a Rock or classical approach.
Hey Dogbite do you ever post any videos... I enjoy your posts and style...would think would also enjoy your playing...
Thanks Reg
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thanks reg, Originally Posted by Reg
no webcam, but i do have a couple of unfinished demos and snippets here:
s/aka/db 12.5% Norwegian | Gratis muziek, tourneedata, foto's, video's
a couple worth sharing and a couple that might depend upon how forgiving you are
and thanks for posting in the middle of a gig (not sure i would do that)
off to work, yak soon!
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+1 for the whole thread, love it
The lady bird analysis was cool, I came up with the same idea a while ago and it's a cool way to look at the tune.
On a side note to jazz/some advice that may help beginners: I first learned modes when I was in a huge joe satriani phase. A lot of his work which he calls "pitch axis" is dedicated to ideas that are really similar to this thread. Modes played back to back, sticking over a constant bass note, to imply different harmonic colors. It's easy to see the changes when you see something like C Maj to C Dorian to C Phrygian. Often that's not the case though, as a tune like lady bird will use idea's based off that but pull chords from that modal family and abandon the constant bass note, or the C in this example.
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Today, in Reg's hread, I asked waht modal interchange was. Then I stumble uppon this thread, and here's much more info and different approache than I can swallow in a long time. Oh, well, think I'll go back to blues.
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Hello I Have been working composing some modal changes tunes, maybe doesn't fit exactly with the modal interchange concept, the tunes is based on some nicolas slonimsky concepts, but it implies Modal harmony
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This is my approach to it. The chord changes are
Glydian
Db lydian augmented aka Lydian #5)
Bb lydian
E lydian augmented (I play thinking in C altered)
Changes were created based on slonismky concepts, diving the octave in four equal parts, that gave us minor Thirds. Then You organize those notes the way You choose.
E G Bb Db.
I organized it starting in G and then going up a tritone to Db, then going down a minor third to Bb, And finally up a tritone to E.[/
So finally the changes are: G lydian Db lydian #5 Bb lydian E Lydian #5[
G Lydian chord I Apply the triad pairs concept, playing G And A triad. Sometimes I play A triad\ B triad implying a Glydian #5
Dd Lydian #5 chord I play A altered, which has the same notes. Also I Apply the triad pairs concept playing Eb triad \ F Triad.
Sometimes I play also minor pentatonics, using the One who are inside the Lydian And Lydian #5 scales.
In G lydian I play : F# minor pentatonic. B minor pentatonic
Db lydian#5 I play: C minor pentatonic. G minor pentatonic (replaces the D for the Db)
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