When to employ the dominant 7 sharp 11

[AmundLauritzen]

OK, I guess I get that bebop will open up a pandora's box of option that make good jazz sense, but I think it helps me in my pursuit to hear the harmony in the tune in the break. I just don't hear D Mixolydian or Lydian dom on this chord. It is not passing, it is the destination for just a moment, I can't think how i would justify the A natural over the D9#11 and remain true to the harmony Duke has constructed. A passing tone yes, but a note that I would target, probably not. The tune rather wants the A natural kept out until the next measure. I couldn't not have that tension as part of my leads as well.

I like a debate, but I have decide not to debate on forums, i respect your opinions on how to approach this, and most of these options work for me too, but not the ones with a strong 5th in the chord/scale. Just don't work to my tin ear.

I get where you're coming from. To me, my whole two-five approach encompasses all these scales but more than anything strong line forms built from them. These lines forms are often built from several of these scales and have strong enough movement and integrity to not always have to line up with all the notes in the chords. For dom7ths, usually 11 of 12 intervals are fair game. The one that usually sounds wrong is #7 but Trane made it work through playing with total conviction.

I guess what I'm getting at is that the integrity of your line, from start to finish, can override potential conflicts in the chord.

But to make it work, you must have a line that is strong from start to finish.

If you were to always adhere to the b5, it would saturate the ear and the solo will sound predictable because people will start to anticipate what you'll be doing when that chord comes around. My 2 cents.

[cubistguitar]

I get where you're coming from. To me, my whole two-five approach encompasses all these scales but more than anything strong line forms built from them. These lines forms are often built from several of these scales and have strong enough movement and integrity to not always have to line up with all the notes in the chords. For dom7ths, usually 11 of 12 intervals are fair game. The one that usually sounds wrong is #7 but Trane made it work through playing with total conviction.

I guess what I'm getting at is that the integrity of your line, from start to finish, can override potential conflicts in the chord.

But to make it work, you must have a line that is strong from start to finish.

If you were to always adhere to the b5, it would saturate the ear and the solo will sound predictable because people will start to anticipate what you'll be doing when that chord comes around. My 2 cents.

excellent response, you are completely on it. the lines you create can have their own gravity and their own direction, I totally agree, you can make it work if the lines create are musical. I guess I am just getting into this good line making, and feel a little too responsible to keeping the original line in the lead

thanks for this response, good points for sure

[brwnhornet59]

excellent response, you are completely on it. the lines you create can have their own gravity and their own direction, I totally agree, you can make it work if the lines create are musical. I guess I am just getting into this good line making, and feel a little too responsible to keeping the original line in the lead

thanks for this response, good points for sure

Such is the power of good contrasting outlining and phrasing. Training ones ear to hear this is a must. Implying unstated movement in the harmony is one of the coolest aspects of jazz IMHO. Evans always said the the more constricted the tunes template was, the easier it is to play outside and break the rules.

Jazz blues is an excellent example of that. Basic outlines with unstable chords everywhere, opening so many doors for new movement. Wes was another master at this, though you would not realize how much he was really out there until you transcribed and analyzed his playing...There are no such things as avoid notes in the hands of a master.

[JonR]

I oftentimes think regular D7 for that. Often even as a two-five so I can play Am7 material on it as well. To me, my most common two-five vocab includes: Dorian(from the II) Mixolydian, dominant bebop, lydian dominant and symmetrical diminished. All those work fine on the A-train D7 chord.

As a regular D7, sure. Personally I would want to retain that G#, as part of the scale if not the chord.
I'm kind of gravitating to the wholetone camp on this (not lydian b7).
HW dim would include the G#, but not the other melody note, E.

A minor 6th pentatonic is also a neat scale(A,C,D,E,F#).

Agreed - again if ignoring the G#.
I also like the A b3 pent on a plain D7: A B C E F#.
[quote=AmundLauritzen;248514]

[JonR]

yeah, the chord sounds augmented to me, so of course wholetone makes a lot of sense, thanks for that

IMO, it sounds augmented because - ignoring the chords altogether - the melody suggests C+ (not D+), or maybe E (or E7 or E+ of course).
But of course, wholetone incorporates both C+ and D+ (not to mention E+)! Neat solution...
IOW, wholetone is a totally ambiguous scale, with no root note (or 6 root notes, however you like to look at it). IMO it has just the right sound for that part of that tune.

But I suspect the D altered scale (aka "diminished wholetone") could work well too...

[JonR]

I guess what I'm getting at is that the integrity of your line, from start to finish, can override potential conflicts in the chord.

True.

But to make it work, you must have a line that is strong from start to finish.

Double true!

If you were to always adhere to the b5, it would saturate the ear and the solo will sound predictable because people will start to anticipate what you'll be doing when that chord comes around. My 2 cents.

Sure.
Personally I don't mind sticking with the b5/#4 there - in fact I prefer to - because I think it's the big attraction to this tune (along with the other 2 or 3 chromaticisms). It's kind of the main hook. Ignore that and you have a pretty ordinary progression, risking a solo sounding like a solo on any other tune (although admittedly a II7 chord straight after I is not that common).
That's my $0.02 .

[cubistguitar]

IMO, it sounds augmented because - ignoring the chords altogether - the melody suggests C+ (not D+), or maybe E (or E7 or E+ of course).
But of course, wholetone incorporates both C+ and D+ (not to mention E+)! Neat solution...
IOW, wholetone is a totally ambiguous scale, with no root note (or 6 root notes, however you like to look at it). IMO it has just the right sound for that part of that tune.

But I suspect the D altered scale (aka "diminished wholetone") could work well too...

Right, the grip I think of for D9b5 is basically C+ with a D bass.

All this fun by just moving the G to a G# and hanging there a moment, wonderful composer, I would love to hear some comments on monks use of wholetone, but thats another thread

[JonR]

Right, the grip I think of for D9b5 is basically C+ with a D bass.

Right! (although you miss the F# that way)

All this fun by just moving the G to a G# and hanging there a moment,

Well, and harmonising it in an unexpected way, of course (exaggerating the dissonance). As I said before, the dull thing to do there would be to use E or E7, or C+ - maybe followed by Am7 instead of Dm7 (saving the ii chord for a ii-V in the next bar).

I would love to hear some comments on monks use of wholetone, but thats another thread

Yes, me too. I don't know how (or where) monk used wholetone, and would be very interested. I do know Wayne Shorter dabbled in it (eg JuJu).

[JonnyPac]

Monk had lots of whole-tone fills that he'd throw over just about any given gap in a tune- Just listen closely. Check out the final bars of Ruby My Dear for an obvious example.

at 6:05 on this clip he plays it running down. Once you hear it in his playing, you'll catch it everywhere.