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brwnhornet59...learn what notes mean to each other...then you'll crack it...
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02-03-2012 01:53 PM
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in other words learn intervals...
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A Maj would become VI of C instead of the vi, usually used as a secondary Dom. I would not think modes against any of this.
Originally Posted by HD280
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actually everything is related...thats the thing...
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then you can freak out...out sounds, in sounds...etc...
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actually when some one plays some weird stuff...you need to study it...that person probably likes that sound, it doesnt have to be the rule...its just the sound he likes...
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Well, weird stuff is explained quite clearly when applying theory towards ones analysis. Intervallic relationships must always be taken into account and expressed in a meaningful way if one wants to be musical.
Modes are a very basic and cumbersome way to look at the big picture unless you are playing a modal piece. Chord tones, chromatic notes mixed with scale sequences, thinking straight from the parent key, will serve you much better in real time application.
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+1. BTW, could you spell a D7susb9 chord for us? (I can't seem to remember that one, for some reason Originally Posted by HD280
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if that works for you...great...
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thats an easy one... :-) figure it out...i am not gonna spoon feed...you should learn to do these yourself...
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if you wanna learn jazz...get into the music...no rules...
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Do you mean D7b9 or D7sus4b9? Originally Posted by whatswisdom
+1. BTW, could you spell a D7susb9 chord for us? (I can't seem to remember that one, for some reason ) ...
If you want D7b9, I prefer playing a rootless D7 with the b9 in the root, in the shape of Ebdim. Eb A C F#. Now all of the inversions in -3rds come into play as well as three other Dom7b9 key centers, (F Ab B).
If you want D7sus4b9, Eb A C G, this becomes the same shape as A-7b5, F9 or C-6 and evokes its own set of modal interchange and several other pools of notes to draw from. Bb, CMM and and GHM would be my first choices to look at.
If you want to play like the big boys, you must know all of the rules before you can break them. Otherwise you will sound like the half drunk hack at your local pub during an open mic.Last edited by brwnhornet59; 02-03-2012 at 03:37 PM.
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Oh come on! How about B/C; F#add9; Bb7#5; Gb7#11; Abalt. ??? (You can do it!) Originally Posted by HD280
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It works for me and countless other players that have a solid understanding about theory and it's rules and how to apply them. Without structure there can be no freedom. One is completely codependent on the other as well as all of those other weird thingy's. Originally Posted by HD280
Last edited by brwnhornet59; 02-03-2012 at 03:46 PM.
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D7sus4b9: I was alluding to Levine's example which generated so much discussion.Do you mean D7b9 or D7sus4b9?D7sus4b9. D7sus4b9.That's really concise, BH. Thanks. Moral of the story: Learn your parent keys.If you want D7sus4b9, Eb A C G, this becomes the same shape as A-7b5, F9 or C-6 and evokes its own set of modal interchange and several other pools of notes to draw from. Bb, CMM and and GHM would be my first choices to look at
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T/y, You really did not need my help Sir!! Originally Posted by whatswisdom
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Not so... That was really what I needed. Inversions are still something I have to keep working on. Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
T/y, You really did not need my help Sir!!
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Cool. Just remember this, when you add a 9th to a 4 note Dom7 making it rootless, you are also playing the vii7b5 chord of the key. They are totally interchangeable . This is all coming back to 3-9 arps. Playing the 1-7 arp of the vii chord, it gives the rootless 3-9 of the V.
Also if you play ii6 you get the 1st inversion of the -7b5 which again, is the V9. So either the ii6 or the vii7b5 can sub for the V9.
So when you do a ii V I just lower the b7 of the ii chord to a 6. There is your ii V9. Did that help?Last edited by brwnhornet59; 02-03-2012 at 05:09 PM.
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Yes indeed. I can see clearly how the notes are the same. Yet it seems paradoxical that major & minor can be swapped. iii-7 for IM7, etc... Everything's connected... Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
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In jazz, since there are so many borrowed chords and drastic tonal changes subbing a C with Am or Em makes almost no dent, whereas in pop/rock C Am Em might actually be the progression and reversing the process into four measures of C would ruin it... no progression! It's important to choose the appropriate amount of harmonic motion for the given performance/song.
The connections are there (Tertian stackings make big polychords and pentatonic subsets are also poly-chordal), but sometimes we need to be a little reserved in our subs. Am and C are not the same chord until you get Am7 and C6 (pentatonic chords also Am7add11 and C6/9). C without G and A in its place is no longer a solid C chord (without it's P5, it turns towards the A + E combo making A the king).
A G triad over a string C pedal implies Cmaj9 more than a V subbing for I, etc. You gotta hear who is boss in the context; sometimes the bass note rules, sometimes the core triad, sometimes you get some hybrid like C/D which gets mislabeled as D7sus too often.
Point being, be very skeptical of chords with essential tones missing altogether (not in bass, chord voicings, or on the strong beats of the melodic lines,/riffs). There might be a simpler answer looking you in the face!
Food for thought...
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LOL, Major is minor, minor is major relatively speaking. I have said this many times, it is all about intervallic perspective. People usually tell me they are really good with major scales and arps but suck at minor. So I always tell them the same thing. After awhile it sinks in. Minor is simply major starting on a different interval. Makes it much easier to grasp once they realize they actually know it. Originally Posted by whatswisdom
Sometimes the most obvious discovery is the most pleasant.
Glad it helped.
Last edited by brwnhornet59; 02-05-2012 at 01:26 PM.
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Connected, yes, but major is of course different from minor. Originally Posted by whatswisdom
Playing iii7 for Imaj7 is not swapping major for minor, it's just omitting the root of the major chord. It's still "major" (I), by implication.
IOW, it's a matter of seeing how chord stacks work. If you take apart any 7th chord (maj7, m7, dom7, m7b5), you can see major or minor (or diminished) triads within it: that's interesting and valuable, in terms of learning shapes and substutions. But those "internal" triads (or rather upper structure triads) don't mean the nature of the overall chord changes, in context.
Eg, a major chord has a minor 3rd between 3rd and 5th. That interval has no bearing on the nature of the chord. That's kind of why we don't analyse chords as being stacks of 3rds, but as intervals from a root. So a major chord is a major 3rd and a perfect 5th; not a major 3rd and a minor 3rd.
The quality of a major chord (with whatever extensions) is very different from the quality of a minor chord: even if we might argue that adding a maj7 to a maj triad confers a kind of "minor" (sad) quality by virtue of constructing a minor triad on its 3rd (eg Em/C).
But I agree - these kind of dissections of chords are fascinating and revealing. One just needs to be careful about jumping to over-reductive conclusions. There's a great quote attributed to Einstein:
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."
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Good points Jon, obviously this is basic intervallic fact and the way of things. If one does not indeed understand the difference between a -3rd and a 3rd in a chord and what that function implies, or that they are playing rootless voicings of a different chord, then they would be truly confused by my earlier statements.
But when I see players with the basics getting confused about minor or major, it is a good way to explain the relationship of shapes and how they are inner connected. It takes the mystery out of what was in front of them all of this time but failed to see, and lets them start using it immediately, but in a different way than what they were used to thinking. If one does not understand that a iii chord is not a I chord, unless the Bass player is playing the root of the tonic, or that a vii is not a V9 chord unless the root of the V is being played or implied by function, then giving them my analogy would be pointless and confusing. But when they do understand the difference and know the basics, seeing their relationships opens many doors for the confused when viewing minor chords, scales and arps.
The same thing can be said to the guys that know minor very well but get confused about major. Helping them see the bigger picture is what it is all about, as long as they don't get confused about the point that you clarified.
Everything is inner connected and therefore open to substitution with each other in one form or another, letting us view these things in a different light. Such is the power of knowledge.Last edited by brwnhornet59; 02-05-2012 at 03:55 PM.
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Good posts, guys. I dig where this ended up. The Einstein quote is perfect.
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I haven't read Levine's book. I hear the dissonance of a perfect 4th against a Maj7th chord, but I wouldn't rule it as wrong. The #4 is more pleasing to the ear, but I never realized it until lately.
My example is a song that I first learned in the mid '70s, Satin Doll. There's a Maj7 chord at the end of the A progression on the word doll. Out cattin', that Satin >Doll< or D7, Db7, C Ma7. Try soloing over these chords using C Lydian during the last chord Vs. C Ionian.
After all these years of playing this song, I discovered the #4 sounds better to me. It wants to resolve to the 5th, where a perfect 4th wants to resolve to the 3rd. My 2 cents & 2 ears...
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