chord/scale relationship and song key

[cisco kid]

Hello,
I'm just a hobbist guitar player (couch player occasionally jam with friends). But I always wanted to get into improvisation - jazz. As with many wanna be jazz guitar players who are interested in improv. find it difficult.
I know in blues and rock basically you are playing in one key ... the scale to play in (blues scale -pentatonic - major blues - minor blues - mixolydian, etc.) you basically stay in one key. But in jazz you can shift keys (I'm thinking of "Giant Steps") in a tune.

The concern/question I have a guitarist can use a different scale for a chord in a song/tune even though the song is in a certain key then in for a different chord in the song move to another scale that will fit that chord.....knowing some scales in jazz will fit several chords to a jazz tune.

How does one know how to switch scales to a chord if one is jamming. I can understand if one knows the chords to the song beforehand to work things out. But it sounds like a singer singing a song in one key with a band ... and the band keeps changing keys where the singer goes "what the ....." and has to change their singing to the band's new key everytime.
Sounds like a guitarist needs to have a very acute trained ear to know what to do plus, of course, a good knowledge of music theory.

I know this question might sound naive to some, but I'll ask it anyway because I heard that concern before but didn't know how to answer it, that is, know what I am talking about to answer that question.
Thank You.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, this is a huge topic, but to get you started.

Whether you view the fretboard in terms of scales or the notes in the chords, themselves, the root of classic jazz playing is playing the changes--that is, adjusting what you play to accomodate every chord.

Chord Scale Theory is the idea of treating each chord with it's own scale. It's necessary to play certain types of jazz. I don't recommend it for beginners, though.

Another way to view things (which i like better for beginners) is to look at the notes in the chord being played, and to use those as jumping off (and landing points) for your improv.

Sometimes, when a tune is really blazing by, you might lump a few chords together and think "key, not chord."

One thing I'll ALWAYS try to do is to highlight any tension and resolution.

Stick around here and do lots of searches--it's a topic that can take a lifetime to master, but the learning process is a lot of fun.

[Timbell]

Since most jazz soloing involves following the chords, and as mr. beaumont mentioned, applying certain scales, or arpeggios to them. In most cases you will need to be familiar with the music and progressions to properly improvise. Although, one diatonic or blues pentatonic scale can be used over some songs with good results. I am very much a beginner at jazz studies and am not entirely sure, but I believe to answer your question, it will be very difficult to hear and understand the complex changes in a jazz tune and solo to it without the music and chords available.

[whatswisdom]

I know this question might sound naive to some, but I'll ask it anyway because I heard that concern before but didn't know how to answer it, that is, know what I am talking about to answer that question.
Thank You.

This is a great question and not at all naive. My two cents that might get you having some fun: Try to learn some chord tones and then try to make some music with them. It's surprising what you can do with a small group of notes. Pick an easy progression, e.g., I IV V. Key: C Major. 7 notes to choose from.


I = C major. Chord tones: C E G
IV = F major. Chord tones: F A C
V = G major. Chord tones: G B D

Keep it simple to begin with. Don't play anything that's not a chord tone until you are able to find them with ease anywhere on the fingerboard. If you start feeling bored, try to connect notes while switching octaves ...

Best wishes,
whatswisdom

[gingerjazz]

Hi James also remember that when most people are improvising on a tune they are usually very famillier with the chord progression and are fully aware of any key changes that may be coming up although the lines they are playing may be brand new the improvisor will have no doubt spent a lot of time learning how to play over a particular set of chord changes,i hope i havnt told you anything too obvious but this is something i once had difficulty understanding myself,although it is improvisation it s still something that has had a lot of preperation.

[mr. beaumont]

Right--you gotta be playing for a good long while before your ear can "predict" where a tune will go.

Until then, you learn as many songs as possible. Lots of tunes have common chord progressions, so after a while, you start to "prehear" things just based on experience.

[cisco kid]

Thanks for the suggestions/advice to my question. It really sounds all down to earth, that is, advice not too technical for one to understand who is interested in getting into guitar improvisations and taking those first few steps in the right direction as far as improvising is concern. I've heard talk about one studying the chordal notes to a song and others concentrating on the scale of the song...pros and cons. But I believe what Mr. Beaumont/gingerjazz suggests is play the chordal notes of the tune first to get ones feet wet to start and get a feel for it...the chordal changes makes logical sense. Thanks to whatswisdom and timbell for their feedback suggestion and ones that follow...much appreciated!
JamesBDean55

[JonnyPac]

The guys here gave you solid advice. Start simple, work out basic progressions in one key, work on common "borrowed" chords, and then tackle tunes that actually modulate (Giant Steps, etc). You must be able to play in one key before you can play in many (though it sounds like you are well on your way).

Even pros are not psychic to oddball changes; you gotta play through each bit weather or not you use chord-scale theory or another vehicle. Generalizing works and so does nailing each detail, both are common in jazz.

Best wishes,

[cisco kid]

Thanks, Jonny Pac, appreciate your advice very much!
JamesBDean55

[23skidoo]

Chord Scale Theory is the idea of treating each chord with it's own scale. It's necessary to play certain types of jazz. I don't recommend it for beginners, though.

Another way to view things (which i like better for beginners) is to look at the notes in the chord being played, and to use those as jumping off (and landing points) for your improv.

Mr B - and others-

This is a distinction I've never really understood. If you base your improvisational ideas on chord tones, once you get to a certain point you obviously add other notes.... chromatics, connecting tones, voice leading, etc.... seems to me, the notes you choose are a result of your experience, your ear, learning from other players, basically lots of practice..... essentially trial and error. Am I off base in this assumption?

CST seems to take the guess work out of it by establishing which notes (aside from the chord tones) 'work' within a given key, just giving you a bigger pool of notes. There are conventional choices ("which scale do I use on this chord?") but every player will make their own decisions regarding which scale or scales to employ as they evolve their ear and their skill level.

I guess I just don't understand the difference or why some people are so passionately anti-CST. I understand the value of beginning with a smaller pool of notes (chord tones) and progressing to more complex melodic and harmonic ideas, but I don't see the harm in looking at CST for ideas outside of these basic beginnings..... just a bigger pool of notes, no?

I've read several threads on this and I just don't understand the anti-CST thing.... Should it just be avoided by beginners, like Mr. B said? I seem to remember some folks ignoring CST altogether, at any level of skill, talking about tonal centers and other approaches...

Seen lots of discussions and arguments, but can't recall a straight side-by-side, pros and cons comparison.... but I've only been here a few months. Just trying to understand the essential difference as a beginner.....

[whatswisdom]

But I believe what Mr. Beaumont/gingerjazz suggests is play the chordal notes of the tune first to get ones feet wet to start and get a feel for it...the chordal changes makes logical sense. JamesBDean55

I think we should invent a subject entitled "Chord Tone Theory." After some study then move on to Chord Scale Theory, which would then be much easier to grasp. Here's another easy way to get familar with chord tones:

Key: C Major. Chord prog: ii7 - V7 - IMaj7. (Dmin7 > G7 > CMaj7)

Chord Tones:
ii7 - DFAC
V7 - GBDF
IMaj7 - CEGB

Notice that the root of ii7 = D. Play DFAC up/down/down/up until fluent.

Notice that the fifth of V7 = D. Hold D. Play GBDF. Repeat as above.

Notice that the fifth of IM7= G. Hold G. Play CEGB. Repeat, etc.

The fifth is the dominant--a powerful chord tone that perfectly leads to the root of the next chord/arpeggio. You stay in the key of C major but you've got a lot of interesting things happening.

(If you limit yourself to these seven notes only, you'll be able to move around the fingerboard with confidence in just a few days. And you may wind up making some nice music.)

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

23Skidoo:

I have avoided getting mixed up in this controversy until now, but here's my take.

CST and working off the chord tones are both methods of teaching and learning improvisation. And there are others, such as the idea of starting with a blues scale over the blues and working on rhythm, phrasing, and structure before worrying about chord changes.

CST is also useful when the changes don't make sense in terms of traditional harmony -- so-called nonfunctional harmony. On such tunes CST can tell you what notes to play over the chords:

Here for instance are the first few chords for Wayne Shorter's "Iris."

F-11 | EMaj7#11 | GbMaj7#11 | Bb+7 | Db7#11 | AbMaj#5

I teach CST but I also understand that there are other valid approaches, which is why I'm not involved in the wars.

Whether CST is appropriate for beginners is an interesting question. Never having tried the other approaches, I am starting to wonder whether some students wouldn't be better off starting to improvise by working off the chord tones. Folks on this forum have opened my eyes to this.

No matter how you learn to improvise, you're likely to reach a point in your development where the method you used becomes internalized and somewhat irrelevant. You stop thinking about CST and just play.

But the example above is a big exception to this. With complex changes that don't follow the traditional tonal structure, you are going to have to do some analysis before you can play a solo. My analysis results in assigning modes to each chord (in other words, CST).

Would somebody like to comment on how you'd approach this tune with another method. (This is a serious question, not an argument.)

[whatswisdom]

How does one know how to switch scales to a chord if one is jamming. I can understand if one knows the chords to the song beforehand to work things out. But it sounds like a singer singing a song in one key with a band ... and the band keeps changing keys where the singer goes "what the ....." and has to change their singing to the band's new key everytime.Thank You.

OP is not ready for Wayne Shorter or CST. If he limits his thinking to just chord tones for a while it will be much easier. I would suggest he imagine that the only notes on his guitar are CDEFGAB. No others are allowed for the C major ii7 - V7 - 1M7 progression until he can play them anywhere on the guitar. After he's got that down, he's only got 5 more notes to learn.(I've pretty much ripped off Mick Goodrick's one-string confinement exercise (see The Advancing Guitarist)--only the limitation here is the chord tones. Keep it simple.

[M-ster]

... If he limits his thinking to just chord tones for a while it will be much easier. I would suggest he imagine that the only notes on his guitar are CDEFGAB. No others are allowed for the C major ii7 - V7 - 1M7 progression until he can play them anywhere on the guitar ...

Hmm. You (whatswisdom) seem to be advocating chord-tones, while describing a chord-scale type of approach.

If I assess my changes, D-7 G7 | Cmaj7 | in this instance, and recognize that they are all expressions of C major, and then I approach the improvisation thinking "C major" throughout, that's not a chord-tone approach.

Using a chord-tone approach, I'd be targeting D, F, A, C over the D-7; G, B, D, F over the G7; and C, E, G, B over the Cmaj7. As I advanced, I would recognize the chord extensions (and later, the altered chord extensions), too. I.e., I also can play E (the 9th) over D-7, A (the 9th) over the G7, etc., etc.

[whatswisdom]

How does one know how to switch scales to a chord if one is jamming. I can understand if one knows the chords to the song beforehand to work things out. But it sounds like a singer singing a song in one key with a band ... and the band keeps changing keys

My point is that he doesn't have to think about scales or key changes because, even though he's changing chords, he's not changing key. He's in C major even when Dmin7 and G7 are being played. If he thinks in chord tones, not scales, the task is easier. Perhaps I should have listed his available notes as: CEGB DFAC GBDF.

[whatswisdom]

Hmm. Using a chord-tone approach, I'd be targeting D, F, A, C over the D-7; G, B, D, F over the G7; and C, E, G, B over the Cmaj7.

That was the reason for:

Notice that the root of ii7 = D. Play DFAC up/down/down/up until fluent.

Notice that the fifth of V7 = D. Hold D. Play GBDF. Repeat as above.

Notice that the fifth of IM7= G. Hold G. Play CEGB. Repeat, etc

[cisco kid]

I know the well known studio bassist Carol Kaye who was on most hit records of the late 50's especially 60's and early 70's worked with all the great artists and record producers (she started out as a jazz guitarist was taught guitar by Horace Hatchett as well as to Howard Roberts and Jimmy Wyble) she vehemently does not believe in studying scales but if I understood her improv. advice..... work on the tunes chord tones - target the chordal tones. She claims this was the way guitarist learned not any more. Really puts down the instructers who focus on the modes. She claims there are only a few colleges around the country (black colleges/universities) still teach this way...the proper way. This really confused me as a novice/wannabe jazz improvisor. She's on YouTube explaining this to an extent.
So I understand some contributors to this tread/question I have is musically sound, understandable and very helpful, but can be controversial to some.
I read somewhere from some music author where he quotes a famous jazz fusion guitarist Mike Stern where he says - and I'm paraphrasing - "I think that most improvisation is more reorganizing things you can play, and is more of a recall function of the brain than true creativity."
That said, I can remember when a well known guitar maker repairman (Art Valdez of Valdez Guitar) on Sunset Blvd. in Hollywood across Guitar Center told me early on "Learn them licks!"
We all know there are blues and rock licks but there's also Jazz Licks - the question how to put them together without showing the seams and make them work in a tune.........all part of the learning process. It takes work, discipline and desire to stick with it. There are rewards in the end I've been told and I believe it, of course, just do it.
Thanks for the feedback much appreciated.
jamesbdean55

[mr. beaumont]

Mr B - and others-

This is a distinction I've never really understood. If you base your improvisational ideas on chord tones, once you get to a certain point you obviously add other notes.... chromatics, connecting tones, voice leading, etc.... seems to me, the notes you choose are a result of your experience, your ear, learning from other players, basically lots of practice..... essentially trial and error.

I like it for beginners because it narrows down what you're visualizing.

I'm not playing only chord tones--I'm visualizing them. I also know where the other notes are in relationship, and what sounds they give me.

For example, if I see G7, the fretboard immediately lights up with G's, B's, D's and F's. But I also knw where the more colorful sounds are because my chord knowledge is not limited to maj7, m7, dom7-- so I can grab a ninth, a #11, whatever. It's not about trial and error IF you do the legwork and really understand chords, the notes in them, and have the fretboard down.

I tell people that the time I spent really learning the fretboard and chords and voice leading to become a good accompanyist was actually the best thing I ever did for my lead playing.

I'm only anti-CST when it overcomplicates things for beginners...hearing people try to think "Dorian-Mixolydian-Ionian" over a major ii V I is ridiculous--but without guidance--that's what many beginners end up doing.

here's plenty of music out there where a working knowledge of CST is pretty darn important (see Richard'sShorter tune example) but I'd of course--never call that beginner material!!

My guess is the people who are adamantly anti-CST just aren't into and playing the kind of tunes that CST makes easier. Different Strokes, that's all.

[whatswisdom]

I'm visualizing them. I also know where the other notes are in relationship, and what sounds they give me.
For example, if I see G7, the fretboard immediately lights up with G's, B's, D's and F's. l.

Way cool! Great image and a great way of thinking!

[23skidoo]

Mr. B, and all, thanks for the clarification.

[JonnyPac]

I am totally pro-CST with an understanding of tonal hierarchies within, and then using rhythm to place unstable notes (chromatic or "avoid") in between, etc. I the end, I think just like Mr. B! I "see" chords and extensions within CST pools of notes (or perhaps vice versa!). The melodic/harmonic intervals are what I truly think of and see in time.

The "war" is BS for the most part, because we all tend to think in a similar way. Any true non-CST players are usually into "early" jazz or very functional changes that the ear can navigate thru well enough.

There is also a common practice vocabulary in each style of jazz that should be grasped. As creative as jazz is, it is a traditional art form.

[whatswisdom]

Mr. B, and all, thanks for the clarification.

This is not trying to stir up any CST issues as I could care less. But, for anyone who hasn't seen, I thought I'd share this, found previously posted on another thread. Sound advice for any beginner and relevant to OP.

"The one beef I have with the "chord scale movement" is that it sort of suggests all seven notes are equally cool, when in fact that's really not the case. There really are usually four notes you want to land on that are the really, really, good ones. Then there are the others you want to get through and some you barely want to touch them. That degree of weight thing is usually not discussed because it is usually presented in the form of modal thinking rather than voice leading. My advice to people is yes, learn the chord scales but also make sure you can solo using just the chord tones. A big chunk of early jazz history was largely improvising using chord tones and improvising around the melody. Those are two valuable entry points" -Pat Metheny

[JonnyPac]

I've seen that quote. Totally true.

[JonnyPac]

From my book:

It is a common pitfall for students of chord-scale equivalency theories to give every note within a chord-scale equal treatment. There is a tonal hierarchy that must be recognized. The core triad needs to be thought of as the lower structure, the seventh as what I call the “gateway” tone, and the other chord-tones as “upper-structures” or “extensions”. Every note besides the core triad may be treated as a “tendency tone” (meaning a tone that is unstable and naturally tends to resolve either upward or downward to a more stable tone) depending on the immediate context. “Avoid” notes or “handle with care" notes are the most unstable tones within each chord-scale. Tonal hierarchies within each chord-scale can fluctuate depending on the harmonic conditions of the music at hand. Use your ear to determine the level of complexity that is appropriate.

[JonnyPac]

From my blog... Some thoughts on CST:

My musical development has been tremendously influenced by chord scale theory (CST) though I never went to a music college whatsoever. I self-studied through books, articles, youtube, forums, private lessons/classes, and gigging. Levine’s The Jazz Theory Book was the gateway book for me back in 2000 when I was 19 years old and semi-interested in classic jazz.

I fell for the Levine-CST bag hook line and sinker. I spent years tracking down almost every recording in the footnotes, had a pianist friend play all of the “two hand” examples. And even went through Levine’s piano book to get piano-like voicings on the guitar.

Though, I liked Levine’s work, something always bothered me… a few things in fact. His neglect of the harmonic minor scale and exclusion of functional harmony (no mention of secondary dominants, melodic devices, guide tones, etc). At this point, I began to use CST in my own way based on my ear and what I was hearing in actual music (jazz and non-jazz alike). I naturally had a sense of the tonal hierarchies within a chord-scale. I heard the tonic, basic triad, guide tones, tendency tones, extensions, triadic upper-partials and so on. It never ended with the idiot-proof “play this over that, avoid that note” BS. That makes no musical sense and no one in classic jazz thought that way. I have turned away from Levine and found Bert Ligon’s books much better all around.

I don’t think throwing the baby out with the bath water is a good answer… Let’s turn to rock improvisation. I work in a guitar store (over 10 years experience, now a manager), and I have been teaching guitar lessons that long as well. It is typical for students (and some professionals) to ask “what scale do I play over that SONG”. They want one pentatonic, blues, or full diatonic scale that fits the entire progression, and then they want to noodle and shred from there. The idea of chord-scale pairing is beyond their wildest dreams, and a tonal hierarchy within each is out of the question. CST is a way to get lead guitarists (or other melodic instruments) to pay more attention to the underlying progression. A progression that “borrows” parallel chords via "modal interchange" (common in Beatles tunes, jazz, hip-hop, grunge etc), back-cycling (country western, rhythm changes, sweet Georgia brown, etc), secondary dominants (most "functional" progressions), makes the “one scale” idea is nearly impossible to pull off. Note that “harmonic generalization” is very different and melodically complex compared to "noodling" in one key.

There are huge pitfalls to CST as it is usually presented (CST without tonal hierarchies), yes, but I still feel like it is a great launching point (though tedious to grasp at first for those without exceptional patience and memorization capabilities). There are no true short-cuts, but going the long route without CST seems even harder and creatively limiting. I cannot imagine playing a Wayne Shorter tune or soloing over the changes to “Strawberry Fields” without it.

At this point I can solo over any oddball chord progression in a harmonically specific way that implies everything between the counterpoint of my part against the bass line (no chords needed). That’s where “linear harmony” comes in and fills the gaps of CST, and allows the rules to be broken (not “outside” mind you) in order to give the music direction; the elements of rhythm; especially “harmonic rhythm”. Chromatic notes, anticipations, and melodic devices make a lot of sense on this level. Again, this is miles away from the typical rock/pop guitarist’s one scale mentality. Thoroughgoing CST is very different than memorizing the dictionary!