Why 7#5 chords?

[bobsguitars09]

Why are 7#5 chords so common in jazz but not pop and rock music?

what is the main function?

[JensL]

The #5 is just an extra leading not to the third of the tonic (D# resolving to E on G7 Cmaj7).

The main funtion (almost the only) is to resolve to a one so they are all dominants or auxillary dominants.

Jens

[Aristotle]

Why are 7#5 chords so common in jazz but not pop and rock music?

Isn't aksing why rock music doesn't have four-note chords a lot like asking why motorcycles don't have four wheels? Wouldn't a defining element of rock music be the absence of such stuff?

[JensL]

Not if you ask whoever wrote the intro to "stairway to heaven" second chord is Am(maj7) with a 9

or Purple Haze ? "My Curse" from Killswitch uses minor11th chords.

Jens

[GodinFan]

Not if you ask whoever wrote the intro to "stairway to heaven" second chord is Am(maj7) with a 9

or Purple Haze ? "My Curse" from Killswitch uses minor11th chords.

Jens

Not only that Am/G# - there is frequent use of Am7, as well as a section with Em/D and C/D.

Lots of great harmonies in that tune, even if it does feel a bit overplayed.

[gingerjazz]

An analogy i once heard about altered dominants was that a car straight from the showroom is fine,but we can allways upgrade the engine to make it perform better.I like to think of altered dominants as five chords that have had a tune up.they do the same job but better.Hope this helps.

[bako]

7#5 is a common chord.
As far as use in certain styles it depends on where you draw the lines.

[Aristotle]

Not if you ask whoever wrote the intro to "stairway to heaven" second chord is Am(maj7) with a 9

And what kind of "rock" is that intro?

[JensL]

And what kind of "rock" is that intro?

Classic!

Jens

[cmajor9]

Rock tends to be modal, while jazz (at least some styles, including bebop) tends to be more chromatic - in part because the songs on which it is based (Cole Porter, etc.) have chromatic melodies. Rock started out very simply diatonic, and only later added more sophisticated practices.

The Stairway to Heaven intro is based on a descending chromatic line (and is certainly not the only rock song to use one).

[Aristotle]

Classic!

A single acoustic guitar playing the Am cliche line is now classic rock? Wow. This is an education even money couldn't buy.

[billkath]

A single acoustic guitar playing the Am cliche line is now classic rock? Wow. This is an education even money couldn't buy.

Ah-but was it a cliche line BEFORE Stairway to Heaven? Or did it become a cliche BECAUSE of Stairway to Heaven? And, either way, is it any less valid? It Is Classic Rock- one of the first Rock Ballad's, I'd say.

[JonR]

Ah-but was it a cliche line BEFORE Stairway to Heaven?

Yes. Well, maybe not a "cliche" exactly - that's a matter of opinion - but you can hear it in My Funny Valentine, for one.
And it would be a common line to play as a "CESH" (contrapountal elaboration of static harmony) over any minor chord (i or iv) lasting a couple of bars. You hear it a lot on iv chords in minor keys, maybe more than on tonics.

Or did it become a cliche BECAUSE of Stairway to Heaven? And, either way, is it any less valid? It Is Classic Rock- one of the first Rock Ballad's, I'd say.

I agree it's classic rock. The term "rock" has to include ballads like that, IMO, and of course it's an extremely popular tune, arguably the best known track by arguably the best known rock band of all time. (I can imagine all kinds of arguments about both those assertions springing up... I'm not a big fan of the song myself, so I don't much care.)

[timscarey]

Not if you ask whoever wrote the intro to "stairway to heaven" second chord is Am(maj7) with a 9

or Purple Haze ? "My Curse" from Killswitch uses minor11th chords.

Jens

I always thought the second chord of the stairway intro was an E chord in second inversion. I don't hear it as an A chord because there is no A in it. I always called it the 5 chord.



Just had to put that out there.

[JonR]

I always thought the second chord of the stairway intro was an E chord in second inversion. I don't hear it as an A chord because there is no A in it. I always called it the 5 chord.



Just had to put that out there.

You're right there's no A in it. I'd call it Cmaj7#5. The notes from bottom to top are G#-C-E-B.
Of course, it's essentially the same as the Am(maj7) is used in similar situations.

[Aristotle]

Ah-but was it a cliche line BEFORE Stairway to Heaven? Or did it become a cliche BECAUSE of Stairway to Heaven? And, either way, is it any less valid? It Is Classic Rock- one of the first Rock Ballad's, I'd say.

You can try to lawyer it to death, but the fact remains a characterstic of rock music not to use many chords bigger than triads and not not to use chords with diatonic extensions. 'By definition' asnwers the question of why they aren't there.

It is interesting, for me, to note the expansion and contraction of the boundaries of "rock." Wide enough to slice off two beats, of the non-rock intro of one song. And then narrow enough that the same song is "one of the first Rock Ballads," leaving out 10-15 years of ballads from Roy Orbison, the Righteous Brothers, the Everly Brothers, Elvis Presley, Ritchie Valens, countless doo-wop songs - and perhaps pushing the envelope a bit more Pat Boone and Paul Anka

Then, there is the original, 1922, My Man Rocks Me with One Steady Roll - which uses the minor chord with cliche line.

[musicjohnny]

Well, exceptions don't break the rule, they PROVE it!

The few great rock songs that use 4 or more note chords stick out in your mind like a sore thumb precisely because it isn't exactly common. Aristotle is correct in saying that an absence of this is one of characteristics of rock, although it's not ALWAYS the case.

[JonR]

You can try to lawyer it to death, but the fact remains a characterstic of rock music not to use many chords bigger than triads and not not to use chords with diatonic extensions. 'By definition' asnwers the question of why they aren't there.

It is interesting, for me, to note the expansion and contraction of the boundaries of "rock." Wide enough to slice off two beats, of the non-rock intro of one song. And then narrow enough that the same song is "one of the first Rock Ballads," leaving out 10-15 years of ballads from Roy Orbison, the Righteous Brothers, the Everly Brothers, Elvis Presley, Ritchie Valens, countless doo-wop songs - and perhaps pushing the envelope a bit more Pat Boone and Paul Anka

Then, there is the original, 1922, My Man Rocks Me with One Steady Roll - which uses the minor chord with cliche line.

Yes, defining "rock" is anybody's game.

I like to define it as something different from the preceding 1950s genre "rock'n'roll", which was clearly derived (mostly by young white musicians) from blues and country music, and pretty much died a death around 1960. 1950s rock'n'roll musicians had no thought of "moving music forward", they just wanted a piece of that exciting R&B action they heard in black music. It was about having a good time.
"Rock" was what happened around the mid-1960s, when bands started turning amps up, and moving the music beyond blues, incorporating elements of folk, as well as more intellectual lyrics, often inspired by drugs, and extending compositions beyond the standard 2 minutes 30.
It was definitely a new genre, referring back to blues of course, but in a more self-consciously "artistic", or "non-commercial" way. (I use ironic quotes deliberately.)
It was an almost totally white male adolescent form, and was mostly originated in the UK (Stones, Clapton, Page, Beck, the Who, the Kinks, etc), albeit with 99% American influences. Its most defining characteristic was perhaps VOLUME (thanks to improvements in amp technology).

While the Stones had set the archetype (image, attitude, line-up), Led Zeppelin (by popular acclaim, as well as hindsight) were the central group of that period (late 60s early 70s). Their "ballads" (if we can call Stairway that) were essentially different things from "ballads" by Roy Orbison or whoever. All a "rock ballad" means is something played slow - - and just possibly with a little less volume than usual.

Led Zep were actually a lot broader and more subtle in style than their followers, most of whom just picked up on the screamed vocals, distorted guitars and heavy riffs (the basic "Rock" signifiers).

I agree with your point about triads. Rock very rarely uses anything bigger than a triad (except maybe add9 chords), and often just uses power chords. Something like Stairway is therefore an exception to the rule. But it's still "rock", because they were a rock band, if not THE rock band. (In fact, its inspiration comes from hippie folk duo the Incredible String Band, who had been exploring long episodic compositions with fey, mystical themes since 1967, and who were well known to Page and Plant.)

[cosmic gumbo]

Check out the "line cliche".

Bebop Basics For Guitar

[kenbennett]

Touché, Cos.

I like typing that é thingy. It's handy. The word cliché comes up often in critiques.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Rock tends to be modal, while jazz (at least some styles, including bebop) tends to be more chromatic - in part because the songs on which it is based (Cole Porter, etc.) have chromatic melodies. Rock started out very simply diatonic, and only later added more sophisticated practices.

The Stairway to Heaven intro is based on a descending chromatic line (and is certainly not the only rock song to use one).

I would agree with this. Even in the example of Stairway, which people are pointing to as a more jazzy progression, it has a pretty classic, rock 'n roll, modal cadence at the end of the progression.

I always thought the second chord of the stairway intro was an E chord in second inversion. I don't hear it as an A chord because there is no A in it. I always called it the 5 chord.

Just had to put that out there.

Taken in context, the second chord is part of an almost perfect CESH progression. I don't hear it as functioning as real V7#5. It's a pretty fleeting passing chord. Then, the ending cadence has that G/A to Am. As far as I can remember, except for the one CESH progression, it's all Dorian or Aeolian chordwise. To me that sounds pretty rock and roll, avoiding a more tonal dominant V chord. Rockers don't really like dominant V chords, and don't often do minor with a solid V chord either.

If I want something to sound more rock 'n roll harmonywise, I'll take out some 3rds, avoid any functioning (non-blues) dominant chords and avoid down-a-5th chord movement.

[GodinFan]

I always thought the second chord of the stairway intro was an E chord in second inversion. I don't hear it as an A chord because there is no A in it. I always called it the 5 chord.



Just had to put that out there.

If it's an E chord, how do you explain the C in it? If it is an E chord, it's first inversion, not second.

If you must classify it only according to the notes in the voicing, it's a second inversion C Maj7#5.

[kenbennett]

If it's an E chord, how do you explain the C in it? If it is an E chord, it's first inversion, not second.

If you must classify it only according to the notes in the voicing, it's a second inversion C Maj7#5.

I've played this song a couple of times and always played G#, D, E, B for the second chord of the intro. I guess I was wrong. I should have listened to the record first.

[Aristotle]

Even in the example of Stairway, which people are pointing to as a more jazzy progression

Expanding and contracting definitions of rock AND jazz. I have seen it posted here that Jobim and Bossa are not really jazz; that smooth jazz is not really jazz; that a tube I posted of a guy playing a jazz standard with swing rhythm, improvised choruses, chromatic embellishments, and harmonized walking bass lines was not at all "jazzy."

But now, two beats of Am chord where the root goes from A to G#, without swing rhythm, without etc. - ah, that's a jazzy progression.

Also, when the verse starts, the melody is on B, in a passing tone sequence. So the intro is a preview. It's not really a pure 9th chord.

[JonR]

I've played this song a couple of times and always played G#, D, E, B for the second chord of the intro. I guess I was wrong. I should have listened to the record first.

It's not "wrong" if you like that sound. You (we) don't have to care if it's not what Jimmy Page did.
In fact, your E7 chord arguably works better than the Cmaj7#5 of the original - it certainly sounds "good", even if it is "wrong". Matter of taste which one prefers. (Some listeners will wince if they are particularly attached to the original, but E7 is a perfectly good chord in that place.)