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just following your own example...
Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
pulling a kevin on kevin...
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02-19-2011 08:58 PM
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No, I make points. You failed to make any.
Peace,
Kevin
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speaking as pluralis majestatis ? :-) Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
if you're not familiar with the latin term this might help:
Majestic plural - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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good boy !!! Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
you wish...
i'm having fun...and taking it to the next level...
you're suffering... why can't you ignore me ?!? :-)
sorry guys, i'll be back to my polite behavior soon... i should act my age... i know...
but this individual is just too much... so far my conduct is pretty mild compared to what i've been witnessing
in other threads... what does it take to get banned here ?
addendum... let's ignore each other... deal ?!?Last edited by oneworld; 02-19-2011 at 09:37 PM.
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I ignored KS a while ago. He is a persistent d-nozzle. He'll carry on as if we can't resist opening his posts. I just see the quoted sections now.
Apparently no one gets banned. Welcome to the club.
BTW Awesome playing and info. You're the kind of dude we want around here. Best to ya. Feel free to chat it up on the treads I start/contribute to.
Here's the blow up from a week or so ago. This happens a lot. Good people have left the forum because of it. I get PMs, emails, and Facebook messages all the time about his BS.
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...on-ignore.htmlLast edited by JonnyPac; 02-19-2011 at 11:23 PM.
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I have one last question: Can anybody cite an example in jazz where I would be likely to treat a D7 as a C diminished double diminished 7th instead of just a D7?
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Well, the TT sub is essentially the jazz equivalent of a Aug6, and their so called "double diminished seventh" (again, not to be confused with Ellington's voicing, the more common usage of the term in English) is really just a 3rd inversion of an Ger6 (except that in jazz we don't usually bother with the enharmonic spellings.) So really, if you play a D/C as a TT sub (so resolving to a Db7) then that is it. But of course our German and Dutch friends would rather label it a B# double diminished seventh.
Peace,
Kevin
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I consider the last few pages of this thread to be a massive win for the Anti-Theory Brigade. If anyone ever wanted an example of anachronistic, esoteric, obfuscatory technical description of a simple D7 chord, then this thread did that in spades. The next time someone asks me "Why did you play that D7 there?" I will reply, "Because it sounds good."
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This thread is fascinating for reasons that have nothing to do with music.
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That's always the best reason. Originally Posted by Banksia
But for many of us, the question of "What is a TT sub and where does it come from?" is interesting. For some people that is a boring question, and that's cool. If you just want to think of it as D7 and as a TT sub, then go ahead - that's certainly how I think of it when I'm playing jazz. It's probably best not to think of it as a Aug6 chord in jazz because that would be too restrictive.
All that crap about "double diminished seventh" was from the Dutch/German crowd who apparently use different terminology. I'm not the one that brought it up. Czardas originally brought it up in his attempt to show that classical theory couldn't handle his little flamenco progression (taking us OT) and started in with his labeling mumbo jumbo (taking us even further OT.)
Peace,
Kevin
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Is this thread about augmented sixth chords and tritone subs?
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That's what it became. It's called thread hijacking.
There were more people wanting to play games than discuss the OP.
Peace,
Kevin
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But I think it illustrated one important point: Jazz doesn't need the whole centuries of classical academia to explain it. If we understand scales and chord formation, we can produce a fairly simple, coherent explanation of a Tritone sub, without needing to refer to classical practice. Ditto for other common musical devices used in jazz.
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Well, neither does classical. The voice-leading explains itself. When I was first taught the Aug6, we didn't go through the whole history. We just were shown what it was, why it worked, and a few examples - just like when I leaned the TT sub in jazz. Originally Posted by Banksia
The history and the connection to classical are just interesting for some of us.
And again, I didn't bring it up. It may look like that because the person that did deleted most of his posts.
Peace,
Kevin
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on topic q's....do you have full subscription access to the oxford online services ? Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
it seems that the last print edition of the 29 volumes of the new grove 2001 wasn't received without controversy by american scholars... i have access to that edition and will check as well...
btw, you did mention two oxford sources, but in another post you were referring to two cambridge sources. care to give me the names for the cambridge books ?Last edited by oneworld; 02-20-2011 at 05:10 PM.
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Sorry, I meant Oxford. We have online access to them through the Uni. I'd recently used a Cambridge guide in a paper I was working on and got the two confused.
I'm not aware of the controversy of which you speak. I'm sure there's some - but in our world there is always some controversy with nearly everything. It's kind of childish to throw that out as if it will smear the most respected name in the musical reference in the English speaking world. I'm sure there are disagreements about an entry here and there (you can say the same about most dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc.) but so what? Do you have some controversy that would knock it off its pedestal as the most respected music reference in English-speaking world? Or is it just another cheap shot?
When you have something substantive to discuss instead of just taking cheap shots and nitpicking, let me know. You still have a long list of rebuttals of mine that you've conveniently ignored.
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 02-20-2011 at 07:31 PM.
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confused you are... Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
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i don't give a #**+ about rebuttals from someone like you... Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
you're a disgrace to your race...
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Word!
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This is a racial thing now? Wow. What a cogent argument you've built. You just keep ignoring any points and just keep heaping on the childish insults, even going racial. Now you're even developing a following of childish posters. I'm up against the pied piper if puerility. Woe is me. I must concede to defeat to a much greater intellect.
*sigh* Only on the internet. Sadly, you think that you've won some great victory. Yes, chasing me around from thread to thread and insulting me with OT childish insults makes you a great man. Very mature. Yes, by screaming at the top of his lungs, a child can keep the adults from having a meaningful conversation.
Peace,
Kevin
PS This thread is pretty much dead, it's been overrun by trolls. It's been nothing but people trying to redefine triads and childish insults for too long. None of the anti-theory guerrillas came out to play anyway. My original intent was to have these anti-theory debates in one place instead of spread all over the forum, but that was clearly a mistake. (They're guerrillas, they never confront you directly.) This thread has just turned into trolling masquerading as indignation - some people are just looking for an excuse.
Children, the thread is yours.Last edited by ksjazzguitar; 02-21-2011 at 03:16 AM.
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"So, does there need to be a division between classical theory and jazz theory? There seems to be a common opinion that classical theory can't handle jazz, or is too inflexible. These people argue that to attempt to describe jazz with classical theory is a waste of time and that jazz needs it's own theory, to the extent that it needs theory at all."
I was hoping that this thread would give you and others a chance to actively show how specifics of classical theory could be applied to jazz.
I have no doubt that jazz harmony can be described with classical theory as well as the opposite.
When I took a theory placement test, my basic understanding was from jazz. I annotated examples of Bach, Brahms and Debussy with chord symbols and slash notes to indicate the inversion. The professor who was giving the test didn't know what to make of my answers and dealing with someone who believed they knew what they were talking about but using a language she didn't speak. She sent me to the theory dept. chairman who had experience playing jazz. He showed me about naming diminished chords in relation to their spelling and function. He also pointed out passing and incidental chords and demonstrated figured bass symbols. It was a good exchange and I knew that in school anyway that this was the language I would need to be conversant in to communicate with about classical music. I never believed otherwise but it felt silly to not attempt to describe the harmonies that I recognized in the language that I spoke just because I lacked fluency in figured bass symbols.
I thought Tim was on the right track by putting up a real example to analyze using jazz and classical methodologies.
I feel that is where I could potentially learn something useful.
"My original intent was to have these anti-theory debates in one place instead of spread all over the forum, but that was clearly a mistake. (They're guerrillas, they never confront you directly.)"
This could indicate why what I was hoping to emerge in this thread never manifested.
To me determining the winner of the "anti-theory debates" seems less promising to applicable learning.
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you're delusional... who started the native vs non native speaker arguments,
america vs europe/the rest of the world BS and snide remarks classifying people into ethnic groups such as 'dutch/german crowd' ? is nick dutch, am i german ? i don't think so... and who gives a f#%* except you ? it is very regrettable that you seem to be involved in the education of children. you set a very dubious example with your own behaviour towards other people...
i work with intelligent and professional 'white' americans on a daily basis...
that's why i still say you're a disgrace to your race, which is not a racial remark at all. can you follow ? :-) let me tell you - since i'm probably your senior - you better grow up and learn to control yourself when something or someone triggers your 'button'...
guys, i know i shouldn't have involved myself and will stop now...
but never have i witnessed such BS on any other internet fora without any moderator stepping in... did i scream ? don't think so... just pulling a kevin on kevin with way less words.... i won't delete anything !
Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
This is a racial thing now? Wow. What a cogent argument you've built. You just keep ignoring any points and just keep heaping on the childish insults, even going racial. Now you're even developing a following of childish posters. I'm up against the pied piper if puerility. Woe is me. I must concede to defeat to a much greater intellect.
*sigh* Only on the internet. Sadly, you think that you've won some great victory. Yes, chasing me around from thread to thread and insulting me with OT childish insults makes you a great man. Very mature. Yes, by screaming at the top of his lungs, a child can keep the adults from having a meaningful conversation.
Peace,
Kevin
PS This thread is pretty much dead, it's been overrun by trolls. It's been nothing but people trying to redefine triads and childish insults for too long. None of the anti-theory guerrillas came out to play anyway. My original intent was to have these anti-theory debates in one place instead of spread all over the forum, but that was clearly a mistake. (They're guerrillas, they never confront you directly.) This thread has just turned into trolling masquerading as indignation - some people are just looking for an excuse.
Children, the thread is yours.Last edited by oneworld; 02-21-2011 at 08:41 PM.
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the above is a prime example of what is called pathological behaviour.... Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
I must concede to defeat to a much greater intellect.
Kevin
PS This thread is pretty much dead, it's been overrun by trolls. It's been nothing but people trying to redefine triads and childish insults for too long. None of the anti-theory guerrillas came out to play anyway.
Children, the thread is yours.
he's the father of us all...we're stupid and his children... this is scary...
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Perhaps. But the point was that whenever I tried to make a connection between something we were talking about with classical theory or history, I would get bombarded by anti-theory guerrillas and chastised by the "any theory beyond 'What scale do I use?' is elitist mental masturbation" camp and the "jazz has nothing to do with classical" partisans. People were complaining that those debates were hijacking other threads so I thought it made sense to address the issue directly in it's own thread. I thought that I was being polite by trying to address the issue in it's own thread instead of clogging up others. But it just turned into troll-apalooza and flamenco spam and arguing with people who don't know how to build basic chords and want to define everything in Dutch/German. The only real jazz example again just got shot down because I dared to analyze something beyond, "What scale do I use?" It's ironic - part of my point was to get us beyond "What scale do I use?" Some people want to analyze the wine, know how it was made, the history of wine, and where it comes from and taste all the subtleties, savoring each drop. Some people just want to get some Thunderbird and get s-faced drunk. It takes all kinds. For some people, the notion that theory has anything to offer beyond "What scale do I use?" is threatening for some reason. To me, it is about the least interesting question you can ask about a tune - perhaps I got through that phase and it is too obvious to hold my interest. Even when it's not obvious, it takes 10 seconds for your ear to figure it out. I just think that there are much more interesting questions. It takes all kinds. Originally Posted by bako
If we want to try again, we can start a new thread - this one is too polluted. But someone else should start it. Maybe even take it from a different angle.
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 02-21-2011 at 03:16 PM.
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