Minor IV chord?

[jzucker]

there are no questionable notes in Melodic minor which is a great choice for a IVmin chord that is leading to V or I. I agree that what you call it is hugely unimportant.

Dorian has no avoid notes but also no tension and is boring. You shouldn't be using scales to improvise with anyway but that's a whole other topic...

[fep]

Call it "min iv" call it "hnshfgusaegflui", in the end it's the sound we all know and use well.

+1 to that

[matt.guitarteacher]

Minor 4 is actually a substitute for an altered dominant chord in many bebop tunes. It's really a suspension of the bVII7 chord (i.e. Bb13) in the key of C. Nothing like a IV chord.

So, it's a IV chord subbing for another chord, but it's still functioning as a four chord. So if I sub any number of possible chords for the V chord per your example, the chords are substituting for V chord which has a dominant function and simultaneously retaining their original respective functions based solely on the scale degree of the preceding key.

Got it. My bad. I misunderstood what was meant by the word "function". I retract all previous statements.

[LucreDom]

Pat Martino plays his famous Pat Martino lick over not only the IV minor chord but superimposed over the V chord. .

Can you point me to Martinos' famous lick? I'm familiar with some of his method but haven't seen the lick

[LucreDom]

MTO 10.4: Walter Everett, Making Sense of Rock's Tonal Systems

Thanks hed_b94, this is a really enlightening article. While I prefer to see some things a bit different than he, he delves nicely into the whole mixed minor/major key idea. I don't fully get what he means by the "triad doubled minor pentatonic mode" and "minor pentatonic doublings" (the Kinks come to mind...) from sections 20 and 21. What are all these doublings? can you help me out with that?

[jzucker]

Can you point me to Martinos' famous lick? I'm familiar with some of his method but haven't seen the lick

here's a couple clips I did to demo it:

[jzucker]

So, it's a IV chord subbing for another chord, but it's still functioning as a four chord. So if I sub any number of possible chords for the V chord per your example, the chords are substituting for V chord which has a dominant function and simultaneously retaining their original respective functions based solely on the scale degree of the preceding key.

Got it. My bad. I misunderstood what was meant by the word "function". I retract all previous statements.

Cut out the sarcasm bro. No need for internet chest thumping. Let's just discuss the issues. Frankly, i don't care for the traditional notion of roman numeral notation except to neutrally depict the chord's relation to the original key or chord. Can we just have a discussion without pwning?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Cut out the sarcasm bro. No need for internet chest thumping. Let's just discuss the issues. Frankly, i don't care for the traditional notion of roman numeral notation except to neutrally depict the chord's relation to the original key or chord. You obvious feel locked into the baroque notion of harmonic movement. That's cool but discuss it like an adult please.

Ok. Sorry. You mean like this?

ok bro. If Leavett said it, is must be right.

In the meantime, in 1945 Bird wouldn't have been caught dead playing dorian over bar 2 of yardbird suite. Oh yeah, sorry . That must not be a ivm7 chord either.

Sounds sarcastic to me.

I'm cool with calling it a ivm7 for ease of notation or calling changes or whatever, but I wouldn't point to it as an example of typical function. Some of these examples you've given have been typical modulations or typical subs, but saying, "See, this is how a IV functions" is another deal.

You can find a lot of examples of a vm7 (with respect to the original key), but I wouldn't point to that and say, "See, V7's function as subdominants".

I don't think that this discrepancy with the use of the word "function" has anything to do with being able to play over changes. You play far better than I do. You just kind of jumped into the conversation and took it in a different direction.

Frankly, i don't care for the traditional notion of roman numeral notation except to neutrally depict the chord's relation to the original key or chord.

As I said above, that's cool. I'm definitely all for making things simpler.

C A7 Dm7 G7 is most easily memorized and played as I VI7 ii7 V7, but at some point, as a teacher, I have to explain to my students the justification for that non-diatonic A7 chord and it's true function. I may include in this discussion the fact that VI7 is so ubiquitous in jazz that we don't really think of it as being a big modulation, but it's ridiculous to never introduce the concept of secondary dominants to a student just because they can be described with diatonic roman numerals. I also don't think it makes sense to say that because a non-diatonic IV chord is often used as a sub or modulation that we now consider it to be a basic function of the chord.

I fully understand that usage of the major VI7 is ancient in jazz terms. However, that doesn't make a basic discussion about its function as the V7 of of ii ridiculous or imply that the person who is discussing it is "locked into baroque thinking". I wouldn't write it that way on a chart, but we weren't talking about charts. We were talking about function. If it's a sub, in reality it's functioning as another chord. This was the original discussion.

Honestly, I don't care that much about these theory debates. I made a casual comment and wasn't looking for any kind of fight. I was thinking of Fep's (non-jazz) example and how the minor four functions like a four. If you want to say that a IV doesn't often function that way in jazz, I wouldn't argue. I just think subs and modulations are another discussion entirely. I never wanted to get into to a debate on whether subs and modulations are true examples of a chord's inherent function with respect to the previous key's scale degree.

Anyway, this discussion has very little importance in the context of actually playing music. I'm done with it. I wish you no ill will. Good luck and God bless.

[LucreDom]

[quote=jzucker;139072]here's a couple clips I did to demo it:

Outstanding! The first way it came to my mind to group these notes is as a D Lydian type scale with both 3rds and both 4ths so, how about over Dma7 type chords? The whole "scale" Can be approximated by either D Ionian, D Lydian, D Jazz Minor, or D Lydian Diminished (Lydian b3). This is sort of why I think Lydian Diminished (or a Harmonic Major mode of choice) can be a melodic scale choice not at all unlike the Jazz Minor, it groups some odd intervals in a way that's fairly smooth and will often "beg" to have a note added from one of the other scales in a way that tells my ear just where to put it. Many Thanks and I will check into your website

[Aristotle]

Alright, dude. I did those last couple of responses from my phone. Maybe I wasn't clear. What I meant, "If the key of the moment is C and one encounters an Fm7 chord (or any other non-diatonic minor 7 chord) it will function as ii7 of Eb more often than any of the other options." I don't have a source in front of me, and I'm not going to look anything up for the sake of this discussion.

Most of the Fmin's I have encountered in the key of C are preceded by an Fmaj.

[timscarey]

So,

So far we have 2 example of IV function (cadential)....

Lady Bird/Yardbird
In My Life/space oddity

And one one example of ii function

Green dolphin street (end of first A)

I suspect the minor Four has other functions as well, perhaps as a vi or iii chord in a quick "modulation" hmmm, any thoughts?

And yes, thanks for the lessons Jack.... killin.

[czardas]

I suspect the minor Four has other functions as well, perhaps as a vi or iii chord in a quick "modulation" hmmm, any thoughts?

Modulation to the tonic minor is the first thing that springs to mind. In fact the effect of altering the chord on the 4th degree to a minor chord has a very gentle and pleasing effect. The Ab is approaching the note G by a semitone which leads to a smooth progression to either the dominant chord G7 or the tonc chord C. I envisage this as borrowing a chord from the minor tonality.

[jzucker]

there's a million tunes that go IV to iv.

Cherokee, just friends, polkadots and moonbeams...

[Aristotle]

there's a million tunes that go IV to iv.

It's so predominant that it's the only thing I thought of after reading the OP.

So far we have 2 example of IV function (cadential)....
Lady Bird/Yardbird
In My Life/space oddity
And one one example of ii function
Green dolphin street (end of first A)

Isn't the VI minor used as the front end of a ii-V temporary modulation into the key of the bIII all three of those songs?

[jzucker]

It's so predominant that it's the only thing I thought of after reading the OP.
Isn't the VI minor used as the front end of a ii-V temporary modulation into the key of the bIII all three of those songs?

not on ladybird and yardbird suite. Both of those go ivmin7 back to I

[LucreDom]

It's so predominant that it's the only thing I thought of after reading the OP.
Isn't the VI minor used as the front end of a ii-V temporary modulation into the key of the bIII all three of those songs?

I like the F to Fm in Ricky Nelsons "Lonesome Town" (Key of C). You could say that it sets up a temporary modulation to the relative minor (wait a minute, that's functionally odd but that's how I hear it, the high voices descend to Am, as what I think of as a tonic sub or extension, then to IV V I. the sequence is F Fm C Am F G C... In this case I guess the IVm is not much more than a passing chord, but I like to define any chord that takes up at least a full beat as functional if I can, so for me it fits as a weak or tweaked plagal cadence), but I don't consider a move to the relative minor or major a modulation unless I never plan on going back home again. Am is in the key and I prefer to see it as just operating from that area of the key with a little extra gravity there. until I'm fully committed the strongest gravity is still swirling around C. This song also uses both Em and E major (E7 also works) for the III chord in the same chord sequence - I III IV V - and while the change (Em is used for intro and E for verse so it's also different timing) certainly wakes the ear up, any functional/key change could only be seen as one chord. Personally, I'm not interested in having temporary modulations cross my radar screen, I want to modulate or not. Somehow I feel the need to see what I think of in terms of gravitational shifts as temporary key modulations comes from placing a bit too much attention in our functional harmony system (or systems!) on the leading tone. It may be the brightest star, but there are myriad gravitational forces going on. Just my opinion. Music theory for me boils down to what works and a way you want to see things (always keeping an open mind!) to sort through something that can be viewed from many different angles.

A final point I'd like to raise on the minor IV thing is that Phrygian has a minor 7 on it's IV. In it's most widely exploited element, the "Spanish" (derived in part from Arabic), Phrygian is commonly or even generally treated as a major tonality with minor interspersed and played against it. And I believe the IV is always minor (what an odd place to find the Harmonic Minor, with it's desperately needed "leading tone" pointing back at itself. Of course it is a "dual tonic" mode, with the "money chords" flamenco progression Im bVII bVI V7 {"walk don't run"} starting from here). I love Phrygian, It's a place where the modal interchange (is that the term?) rubber really meets the road. Something I want to learn more about. BTW I truly do apologize in advance for all this parenthetical emphasis I've abused. I'm gonna shut up and play my guitar some more!

[timscarey]

there's a million tunes that go IV to iv.

Cherokee, just friends, polkadots and moonbeams...

Right, but I'm wondering about is a tune where the minor 4 chord is used as a 6 chord in a temporary modualtion ex.

Dm - G - CMaj repeat Fm - E7 - Eb7 - AbMaj - G7 - Cmaj

Or something to that effect, where the Fm is first heard in the key of C but is functioning as a 6 or 3 somewhere else.... dig?

[jzucker]

Right, but I'm wondering about is a tune where the minor 4 chord is used as a 6 chord in a temporary modualtion ex.

Dm - G - CMaj repeat Fm - E7 - Eb7 - AbMaj - G7 - Cmaj

Or something to that effect, where the Fm is first heard in the key of C but is functioning as a 6 or 3 somewhere else.... dig?

But in your example, what you are calling a VI is simply a IVmin7 and the Em7 is just an inversion of Cmaj7 and the Abmaj7 is just a tritone substitution. That example is not modulating to the key of Ab. (imo of course...)

[timscarey]

But in your example, what you are calling a VI is simply a IVmin7 and the Em7 is just an inversion of Cmaj7 and the Abmaj7 is just a tritone substitution. That example is not modulating to the key of Ab. (imo of course...)

How is E7 subbing for C maj? And, did you play these chords or just use theory to arrive at your conclusion? Its a pretty clear 6-2-5-1 in the key of Ab. We can just change the E7 back to Bbmin7 and continute discussion, besides, you knew what I meant.

[jzucker]

How is E7 subbing for C maj? And, did you play these chords or just use theory to arrive at your conclusion? Its a pretty clear 6-2-5-1 in the key of Ab. We can just change the E7 back to Bbmin7 and continute discussion, besides, you knew what I meant.

E7 is part of the turnaround in your example. It's not a modulation. It's a variation of Em7 which is 1st inversion of Cmaj9.

I've played these chords a zillion times. They are just common turnaround subs used in a million tunes since 1945.

I'm not sure what you mean "I knew what you meant". I was responding to your posting. Nothing more. And besides, Bbm7 would just be a tritone sub also. If you change them all to tritone subs you end up with | Bb7 Eb7 Ab7 Db7 | C |

or

| Fm7 Bbm7 Ebm7 Abm7 | C |

In that latter case, the Fm7 is not functioning as a 4 chord because it's part of the turnaround.

[timscarey]

E7 is part of the turnaround in your example. It's not a modulation. It's a variation of Em7 which is 1st inversion of Cmaj9.

I've played these chords a zillion times. They are just common turnaround subs used in a million tunes since 1945.

I'm not sure what you mean "I knew what you meant". I was responding to your posting. Nothing more.

I'm asking about tunes that use a minor 4 as a 6 in a different key as aprt of a modulation, if I had a good example from a tune, I wouldn't be asking the question. That's what I meant by "you know what I meant" and besides, we don't know if the example I gave would be considered a modulation or a turnaround. There's no indicated harmonic rhythm.

[jzucker]

And besides, Bbm7 would just be a tritone sub also. If you change them all to tritone subs you end up with | Bb7 Eb7 Ab7 Db7 | C |

or

| Fm7 Bbm7 Ebm7 Abm7 | C |

In that latter case, the Fm7 is not functioning as a 4 chord because it's part of the turnaround.

[jzucker]

Also, if the IVm7 is occuring at the beginning of a phrase it's unlikely to be the VI chord in terms of harmonic rhythm

[Aristotle]

not on ladybird and yardbird suite. Both of those go ivmin7 back to I

[timscarey]

Also, if the IVm7 is occuring at the beginning of a phrase it's unlikely to be the VI chord in terms of harmonic rhythm

Right, I agree there 100%, but again. Let me clarify even further.

I'm looking for a tune that modulates down a Major 3rd by way of a 6251. This would make the 6 chord sound as the 4 minor in the origonal key (for at least a few beats before the modulation becomes clear) a la green dolphin street, only to Ab not Eb.

Or the same thing only 36251 to Db.

The reason is, these "minor four" chords would have different "choice" scales related to their function in the new key.... maybe. I dunno, that's why I'm asking the question