How to Find the Key of a Song?

[Hardbop]

Hey all. Thanks for helping and humoring a beginner. My question is, how do I tell what key I'm playing in? Do I look at the sharped/flatted notes I'm playing? For instance, say I play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in different positions on the neck. Do the notes tell me the respective key? If that's kind of the case, how then to I extrapolate that to more involved songs. Will a more complex melody have notes that don't jive with it's key? Again, thanks for humoring a newbie. This is a great forum and I appreciate it.
Sincerely,
Dave

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Tunes normally end on the tonic chord with the root in the melody. In "Mary had a little lamb", placed in C major, the end of the song. "her fleece was white as snow" snow is the note C, over a C chord.

More complex songs, like jazz standards, will often modulate, so the song will be span multiple keys. Again, it normally ends in the overall key of the song.

[ksjazzguitar]

I agree 100% with Daddy, but just to add, sometimes on jazz tunes there may be some turnaround to lead you back to the top, often in the last two measure that may obscure the final tonic if you don't understand how turnaround work or how to spot them. Usually in a jazz song, the chord on beat 1 of the second to last measure is the tonic. But sometimes they don't even bother putting in a turnaround (leaving it implied) and the last 2 bars are just the tonic, making it easier to spot.

Peace,
Kevin

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Also: exceptions are what make life interesting, not?

Take "The Girl From Ipanema"

It ends with "she doesn't see, she just doesn't see, no she doesn't see." That ending shouldn't have a "final" feel to it, right? And it doesn't. It keeps landing on the note E (over the tonic chord FMaj7), so it just "floats".

[Andrés_G]

The first thing you have to do is look at the key signature, and if correct, there you'll see in what key is the song. If i'm not mistaken, that strategy will work most of times with the Real Books, for instance.

[ksjazzguitar]

Also: exceptions ..."The Girl From Ipanema"...That ending shouldn't have a "final" feel to it, right? And it doesn't. It keeps landing on the note E (over the tonic chord FMaj7), so it just "floats".

Oops, sorry, I thought we were talking about chords, not melody notes. The melody usually lands on the tonic, but you are right to point out that there are notable exceptions.

The first thing you have to do is look at the key signature, and if correct, there you'll see in what key is the song. If i'm not mistaken, that strategy will work most of times with the Real Books, for instance.

True, but that can still be ambiguous. Many people assume that "Autumn Leaves" is in G because of the key signature and how it starts. But Em is the final target.

And there are a few bebop and modern tunes that have so many accidentals that they just leave off a key signature to avoid adding more confusion.

Peace,
Kevin

[max_power]

Look at the chords, that's how. The chords will always tell you. The tonic chord will be included at some point. In jazz the key center can modulate frequently, so some tunes consist of a few different keys. Some people desperately try to define a tune's "overall key" because they need to stick with one scale in order to be able to play anything, but this form of analysis is not beneficial for improving your playing or for properly understanding a tune. For example: Autumn Leaves is not "in E minor". It starts in G major with a ii-V-I, then modulates to E minor via the IV of Bb major (which is the VI of E minor). If you treat the whole thing as being in E minor your playing will sound boring, because minor and major chord progressions should be treated differently.

[ksjazzguitar]

Look at the chords, that's how. The chords will always tell you. The tonic chord will be included at some point.

Yes, but which one.

Some people desperately try to define a tune's "overall key" because they need to stick with one scale in order to be able to play anything,

Most are just trying to understand how to label the tune. It is important when talking about repertoire to know which tonic you are calling the "real" tonic.

but this form of analysis is not beneficial for improving your playing or for properly understanding a tune. For example: Autumn Leaves is not "in E minor". It starts in G major with a ii-V-I, then modulates to E minor via the IV of Bb major (which is the VI of E minor).

I disagree, the tonic of Em is the goal of the whole song. Music is goal oriented, not beginning oriented. On a smaller scale, the ii-V-I is not defined by its first chord, but it's last. We may not discuss it much in jazz, but the idea of thinking about the large scale movement of key-centers through a piece of music is very common in classical music, even analyzing it as its own harmonic hyper-progression. And of course, Schenkerian Analysis is all about looking at the music as moving towards a target, at the end. To be honest, I can't think of a major analysis system that doesn't the end as the target. I've also heard several jazz educators say pretty much the same thing, and I can't recall anyone (at least not an authority) saying otherwise. Please, someone let me know if I am wrong.

If you treat the whole thing as being in E minor your playing will sound boring, because minor and major chord progressions should be treated differently.

Nobody said anything about treating the whole thing as Em. If you've read anything that I've written on this forum you would have seen that I rant ad nauseum against people who try and just wash over things with scales - I advocate a more chordal (or more accurately a mixed) approach. No one in this thread said, "It's in Em so you can just play Em over the whole thing." That is a ridiculous statement that you are trying to put in my mouth - please keep your fingers out of my mouth! And how would defining it as G be any better? Wouldn't that just lead to the exact opposite problem?

Nobody said anything about the key telling you what scale to use. That is ridiculous. To quote Daddy, "More complex songs, like jazz standards, will often modulate, so the song will be span multiple keys." But the point is just to have a way to communicate with other musicians in what key the song is. You do that by looking at the final/target cadence.

If you want to call the key of "Autumn Leaves" based on how it starts instead of how it ends, go ahead. But don't be surprised if the more educated guys in the band roll their eyes.

Peace,
Kevin

[Andrés_G]

Yeah, no one said anything about treating the whole song like Em. You could say that it is in E minor, by looking at the chords, the melody, the end, etc. And for beginners or not jazz players actually a good place to start is to play over the whole thing with E minor scale. Maybe it will sound boring, but you have to start somewhere!

[max_power]

I think we have a misunderstanding here, KS. I'm not suggesting that the tune shouldn't be "labelled" as being in E minor...of course we need to be able to communicate what key we want to play in, and giving the song an overall key as a "label" is very useful for this. When I said that the song isn't just in E minor, I was referring to the level of analysis that pertains to playing over the changes. The first part of the song is a major ii-V-I, and it should be treated accordingly in one's solos. That's all I was getting at.

[ksjazzguitar]

Well, MP, I think you misread then. You stated, "Autumn Leaves is not 'in E minor'". It is in Em. No one was talking about scale selection, but about the key the song was in. The point was already made that a jazz song commonly moves through other keys to get there.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Peace,
Kevin

[Tom Karol]

"The ear has memory but no eyes." - (the late) William Leavitt, long time chairman of the Berklee guitar department and author of, "The Berklee Guitar Method," et al.

When the tune arrives at Em in measures 7 & 8 (the end of the first 'A' section), then you know it was in Em!

[Hardbop]

Thanks so much for all the information, Guys!

[M-ster]

True, but that can still be ambiguous. Many people assume that "Autumn Leaves" is in G because of the key signature and how it starts. But Em is the final target.

Er ... one sharp indicates either G major or E minor, so this argument doesn't hold water ... although sometimes key signature (or absence of key signature) can be ambiguous.

I'd recommend:

1) Check the key signature
2) Look at the melody
3) Look at the changes

[ksjazzguitar]

Er ... one sharp indicates either G major or E minor, so this argument doesn't hold water ... although sometimes key signature (or absence of key signature) can be ambiguous.

I said, "True, but that can still be ambiguous. Many people assume that 'Autumn Leaves' is in G because of the key signature and how it starts. But Em is the final target." Then you say, "one sharp indicates either G major or E minor, so this argument doesn't hold water", then you agree with it, by saying "although sometimes key signature (or absence of key signature) can be ambiguous." Is the statement, the "key signature can be ambiguous" false when I say it but right when I say it.

Secondly, by definition, since it can represent 2 keys, it is ambiguous.

Thirdly, if you read the quote, it was in a specific quote, I was talking in a context of the song "Autumn Leaves" it is the combination of the definitional ambiguity of the key signature and that the song starts in the key center of G that misleads people to assume that they key is G. Read the whole statement, not just a tiny piece.

I'd recommend:

1) Check the key signature
2) Look at the melody
3) Look at the changes

True, those provide clues, but why look for clues when you can jump straight for the answer. The final resolution, the target tonality, is the key - by definition. The other "hints" are usually good indicators but can also be red herrings. It's like we're trying to find north and your suggesting we look for moss on trees and look at the position of the sun. Why not just look at the compass?

Peace,
Kevin

[M-ster]

My point was more that one sharp does tell you the key of Autumn Leaves, since that is the key signature for E minor. You seemed to be implying that looking at the key signature was a bad suggestion, and you provided an example that didn't prove your point.

But, I didn't mean to offend. I was just saying ...

The final resolution, the target tonality, is the key - by definition.

I'm not quite sure that this is a certainty, either. If you encounter a Picardy third in a classical piece, will you tell me the prevailing key is major?

I'm not saying you advocate a bad approach. I'm just saying that it's not the only approach, nor is it fool-proof. Of course, compasses can be fooled, too.

[ksjazzguitar]

My point was more that one sharp does tell you the key of Autumn Leaves, since that is the key signature for E minor. You seemed to be implying that looking at the key signature was a bad suggestion, and you provided an example that didn't prove your point.

But by definition it is ambiguous - it gives two possible answers - if a key signature is even used. I still say jump straight the the only piece of information that defines the key of a piece.

I'm not quite sure that [final tonic is the key of a piece] this is a certainty, either. If you encounter a Picardy third in a classical piece, will you tell me the prevailing key is major? ...

OK, I'll give you, that's an interesting point. But the Picardy third is mainly a classical technique and isn't even that common there. But we are talking about jazz. Is it ever used in jazz? Maybe in performance, as the end of the tune, but that wouldn't be in the sheet music.

I'm sure if we look hard enough, we can find a few songs that put the test to the rule (on a little reflection, "Triste" comes to mind - that last bit is just a vamp, but it does strain the rule.) But I still say looking at the final tonality is far and away the best rule in the sense that it is the most consistent in yielding a correct answer. "Check the key signature" as we said yields two possible answers, more if it isn't using the right key signature. "Look at the melody" is much more on, but as noted (most but) not all of them end on the tonic. And "look at the changes" is too vague to be useful, unless you are saying to look at the final chord changes, which is what I am saying.

Obviously we are arguing over somethings silly. In reality it is more of a "fuzzy logic" thing, based on these basic principles. Perhaps there isn't a 100% infallible rule. (sigh)

Oh well, we've played this out.

Peace,
Kevin

[Andrés_G]

Kevin, just to mention, in a jazz group I played, they ended Blue Bossa in F major, obviously that is a live version, but probably more songs end this way, with a different chord than expected. Also, many songs end with turn arounds, or 2 5 (as you mentioned before in this post) so your method could confuse a begginer if he goes straight to the last bar and doesn't know a lot about chord functions. But I've been checking some standards, and It seems quite effective, but in all cases (I've found) the key signature coincides.

[ksjazzguitar]

Kevin, just to mention, in a jazz group I played, they ended Blue Bossa in F major,...

Yes, there are many performance practices that end on a different chord. There is nothing wrong about that. But we were talking about looking at a lead sheet.

Also, many songs end with turn arounds, or 2 5 (as you mentioned before in this post) so your method could confuse a begginer if he goes straight to the last bar and doesn't know a lot about chord functions.

Yes, but if they can't understand the difference between a tonic and a turnaround, then they aren't going to be able to use the different methods anyway.

But I've been checking some standards, and It seems quite effective, but in all cases (I've found) the key signature coincides.

Yes, most of the time the key signature is right, but how does the uninformed distinguish between major or minor (or more if it is a modal tune)? The key signature at best narrows it down to at 2 keys. And from this (and the primacy of major ii-V-I), many beginners conclude that "Autumn Leaves" is in a major key. (Not to mention the few who think that the first chord is the key.) How can you know it's not? You look at the last cadence. That, by definition is the key of the song. So far I can only come up with one example where that could lead you astray. I'm sure there are a few more, but not many.

Obviously, some kind of combination of these would work best, but ultimately it is the final tonic that carries the most weight.

Peace,
Kevin