Too dumb for jazz? That may be me...

[Tal_175]

One approach is to think of the tune as almost all in C/Am tonal center. Then, as the changes go by, adjust what you're doing to give due consideration to the chord of the moment. So, you might choose to emphasize D F A and C when the chord is Dm7. And, when the chord changes to Cmaj7, emphasize C E G and B. In either case you could extend to the 9th or 13th, so it could be D F A C E and then C E G B D A.

When an E7 comes up, you think C tonal center, but if you adjust it raise G to G#, it will sound like you're outlining the changes, which is because you are. If all you do is raise G to G# that produces the same notes as A harmonic minor.

Ealt can be more complicated because there are four alterations, b5 b13 b9 and #9. The notes would be Bb C F and G. Three of these are in the tonal center. You have to decide what to do with G and G#. But, at least it's only one or two adjustments from the C tonal center. One is raising the G. The other one is probably raising the A to Bb.

That gets a little complicated until the note names become automatic. You can also cover Ealt by thinking Fmelmin or Bb7 and sharp the Eb to E.

The idea is you think tonal center and chord tones. It ends up being pretty much the same thing as if you thought in modes, at least for this tune.

The tonic chord of the tune is typically a minor 6 chord. So the C/Am tonal center is not the best choice for the I chord as instead of the chord tone the 6th, you get a the b6th. If you play a scale with the 6th such as dorian, then when you get to the E7b9, you'll have to change at least two notes: F#->F and G->G#. Of course you can do that. You can actually play all the chord-scales I mentioned in my post by altering the major scale on each chord. I just don't see how that's an easier way to organize working on phrase development. Besides there are idiomatic dominant and altered resolution phrases that I think more naturally viewed from the point of view of the dominant chord (as opposed to changing notes of the tonic). Like I said, I am not saying that no other approach could work. I just don't see why people write-off the chord-scale organization as a framework for working on a tune as a non-starter.

[Christian Miller]

Emoji-scale theory?
Attachment 129017

Seriously, if you play nice chords
5x45xx 7x67xx 8x79xx 7x69xx etc
nice lines will come of their own.

This is the best JGO post


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[Tal_175]

Seriously, if you play nice chords
5x45xx 7x67xx 8x79xx 7x69xx etc
nice lines will come of their own.

This is the best JGO post

See you didn't have to make all those videos. Just play nice chords and lines will emerge.

[acoustic_archtop]

I can do a lotta stuff, but understanding modes eludes me. The bit about starting a scale on a different note, that is.

In the abstract, I get it: to quote from a jazz edumacation site:

"For example, if we play the notes of C major but starting on a D we get the Dorian mode, which has quite a different character to the original major scale. Similarly if we start on an F we get the Lydian mode, which sounds different again."

and,

"The Dorian scale should generally be your go-to jazz scale choice on a minor seventh chord. It’s a minor mode with a flattened seventh but a natural sixth, and you can work it out by playing any major scale starting on the second degree."

So if I am playing over a C chord, and I want to play in the Dorian mode, I should play notes from a Bb major scale.

Or if I'm playing over a Cm7 chord and I want to play in the Lydian mode, I should play notes from an F scale.

Or... maybe I want to play a Mixolydian scale, and I'm sitting there THINKING... and then the song is over. WTF?

Ah, just let me play my Bird and Louis licks in a graceful way over the changes, and then I can get paid...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the whole bit about superimposing one scale over a different chord is WAY over my head. I can still read music, sound good and cooperate with the leader, that's the important thing. But I may be too dumb to be a jazz musician. 60 years a player, 60 years a moron...

I say forget it. It's not important and not necessary. Go a different direction. Maybe in a couple of years come back and try again.

[Christian Miller]

See you didn't have to make all those videos. Just play nice chords and lines will emerge.

Nah I just thought the emojis were funny.

JGO is a place where people who massively overthink things accuse other people of overthinking things.


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[Tal_175]

Nah I just thought the emojis were funny.

JGO is a place where people who massively overthink things accuse other people of overthinking things.

Yes, because people underestimate how much things they have internalized can appear like thinking to others who haven't worked as much with their approach.

[Cunamara]

JGO is a place where people who massively overthink things accuse other people of overthinking things.

OMG, this thread has had two of the funniest posts I have ever seen in decades spent in various fora! Tears of laughter.

And living next door to Minneapolis as I do, tears of laughter are greatly appreciated.

[jazznylon]

Too dumb for jazz or too smart for jazz? Which is better?

[Stevebol]

[Tal_175]

Too dumb for jazz or too smart for jazz? Which is better?

I don't think it's a matter of being dumb or smart. There are different approaches with different trade-offs in terms of where they shift the complexity. You can find musicians/students who had great success or no success at all in all approaches. Sometimes people can be closed minded to approaches that put the initial complexity in areas that are outside of their comfort zones. Obviously one doesn't have to conquer every area outside of their comfort zones if they found something that works for them.

Some approaches may have a superficial facade of simplicity but students can still get stuck in the disguised barriers of the hidden complexities for decades without making meaningful progress. Other approaches can put the complexity up front but that complexity can provide a useful structure and become a leverage for serious students. For example the following is a blues scale practice from the excellent guide by David Berkman. It'll probably give nightmares to some of the more chord-scale-phobic members of the forum. He comes up with many interesting practice ideas from these scales such as voice leading single note with minimal movement through the form. Many of these types of exercises are also very ear focused.





Generally it's good to be skeptical of positions that outright reject ways of working on this music that's adopted some of the very accomplished educators/musicions even if it's just what you want to hear and it fills your heart with joy.

[lammie200]

Indirectly related to modes, but I thought that this is in interesting way of explaining chord sequences.

[Mick-7]

Alas, neither phrygian nor lydian chords were found to repel the Persians.....

Herodotus recorded an event that links Lydia to Phrygia: Adrastus, a son of the Phrygian king Gordios, son of Midas, sought sanctuary at the Lydian court of King Croesus. Both kingdoms eventually and simultaneously succumbed to the successors of the Medes, the Persians, whose king Cyrus captured Sardis in 546 B.C. Phrygia and Lydia ceased to be independent kingdoms and became provinces (satrapies) of the Persians.

[Litterick]

In A Note on the Modal System of Gaelic Tunes [Journal of the Folk-Song Society, December 1911], Annie G. Gilchrist observed that James Culwick [in The Distinctive Characteristics of Ancient Irish Melody. Dublin: E. Ponsonby, 1897] found no eqivalent to the Phrygian mode in Irish music, whereas she could not find ‘a single instance’ of the Lydian mode in Scottish music. Neither tradition uses the Locrian mode.

[pauln]

During the entire existence of the Earth not
a single instance’ of the Lydian mode in the
music of the folks on Venus has been found

[John A.]

During the entire existence of the Earth not
a single instance’ of the Lydian mode in the
music of the folks on Venus has been found

Perhaps so, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence ...

[charlieparker]

I’m not really on a crusade for modes but one more thing.

When I was first beginning to look at “jazz” methods I found an exercise taking ii-V-I with dorian, mixo, and ionian through all 12 keys: C, F, Bb, etc.

Covers the entire fretboard and mastering that helped me know any note my finger landed on and solidified key sense.

I still use it as a warm-up or refresher since these days I seem to be playing in the horn keys all the time.

What was the exercise? Just playing the scales or something else?

[Aiq]

Just the basic mode over ii-V-I. I saw it years ago but the first time I got through it I felt good. Very much a basic starting point warmup type thing.

February 3, 2026 - YouTube

[RLetson]

About that "emotional associations" video: Nice laying-out of the harmonic landscape (of western music, anyway) that does a big leap when he tries to argue for inherent emotional content of particular harmonic moves. This sounds to me like the various arguments for inherent (as distinct from assigned or constructed or conventional or traditional) "meaning" in art. The tell is in "associations." I'd think he would have better luck with other musical elements--say, tempo, which can be linked to physical movement.

To be fair, I bailed just after the six-minute mark, when he started connecting particular emotional reactions to particular harmonic movements. I mean, what is the range of emotions conveyed by the do-wop chord pattern? What emotional content do "Stay," "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow," "Stand by Me," "All I Have to Do Is Dream," and "No Woman, No Cry" have in common that's not accounted for by the lyrics?

[Tal_175]

Joe Pass building chord scales (starting at 34:30):

[AllanAllen]

What was the exercise? Just playing the scales or something else?

Whatever the exercise was, it's a convoluted waste of time. D Dorian, G Mixoliydian and C ionian are all the same. This is literally taking something simple and making it hard for no reason, adding labels and mental load that you don't need.

You can think of Dorian when you're playing So What, but not so much when you're playing Satin Doll.

[Tal_175]

Whatever the exercise was, it's a convoluted waste of time. D Dorian, G Mixoliydian and C ionian are all the same. This is literally taking something simple and making it hard for no reason, adding labels and mental load that you don't need.

You can think of Dorian when you're playing So What, but not so much when you're playing Satin Doll.

G Mixolydian is a fancy name that describes one's ability to both aurally and mentally relate the notes of the C major scale to the G7 chord. So in the context of G7, the note E is 13th, A is 9th, B is the 3rd etc.

People focus on the ridiculous names given for this important skill as an excuse to dismiss it all together. I am sure all the masters could do that, just because Charlie Parker or Barry Harris didn't call it Mixolydian doesn't mean they had no other way of relating notes to the harmonic context.

[jazznylon]

G Dominante

[AllanAllen]

Very true and I am biased because thinking in chords makes sense to me, we solo over the chords right? We already have to memorize them, why not use them as the basis for improvisation instead of adding another label? Then you can solo off chord shapes. Hopefully you know them too because you are comping some of the time when you play with other people.

[Christian Miller]

G Dominante

There's my guy!

[Tal_175]

G Dominante

Yes, if "mode" names were Italian rather than Greek, people would have adopted them with less resistance. People are more used to Italian musical terms.