I found a scale that covers the entire minor 2-5-1 melodically

[joe2758]

That's true with the presumption that whoever we're talking about is doing that instead of practicing

[pamosmusic]

Every once in a while I check in on the theory forums to see if we’ve made progress.



…

To be fair this is how I feel whenever something tempts me to click on a gear thread.

[Strat-itis]

[Mick-7]

To be fair this is how I feel whenever something tempts me to click on a gear thread.

No idea what you mean, they never get anal in the Gear section.

[Cunamara]

That's the major scale with the b6th added, a.k.a., a combination of the major and harmonic major scales.

And a.k.a. one of the bebop scales.

[GuyBoden]

And a.k.a. one of the bebop scales.

[Strat-itis]

Yep, bebop major.

[pamosmusic]

Out of curiosity why not the Am 6/dim?

A B C D E F F# G#

A C E F#
B D F A
E G# B D

with the added benefit of including the nice Am6 for the tonic minor

[Strat-itis]

You're right, that's even more intuitive as a first option to go to. Just the minor 6/dim scale on the 1. It might be a tad more spicy tho. The C6/dim is more diatonic.

A-6/dim modes for the key of A minor:

ii: 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, 5, 6, b7 Dorian b2 with blue note
V: 1, 2, b3, 3, #4, 5, 6, b7 Lydian dominant with #9
i: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 6, 7 Melodic minor with b6

C6/dim modes for the key of A minor:

ii: 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, 6, b7 Locrian with major 6
V: 1, b2, b3, 3, 4, 5, b6, 7 Phrygian with major 3
i: 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 7 Natural minor with major 7

[RickyHolden]

I am wondering if it is easier for people's understanding to say 'favour Ab over A when the chord is the E7 as it is the 3rd of that chord.'

Am I right to say that this thread is basically theorizing that concept?

[Tal_175]

I am wondering if it is easier for people's understanding to say 'favour Ab over A when the chord is the E7 as it is the 3rd of that chord.'

Am I right to say that this thread is basically theorizing that concept?

Note quite, "change this note" is not typically how people conceptualize jazz harmony.
Suppose you are in F major: | Amin7 | Dmin7 | G min | C7| Fmaj7 |
Let's say Amin7 is A7. This changes things quite a bit. Most people won't think of this as "play F major but favor C# instead of C".

If the changes are | A min7 | D min7|, most may treat this as a static F major chord for two bars when improvising.
But | A7 | Dmin7| is a different harmonic movement. Now you have a temporary V-I movement which would separate these two chords functionally and most would use a different kind of vocabulary compared to the original version.

If you have |A min7| D7| instead, again everything changed. Many may treat this as two bars of D7 going to Gmin for example.

[RickyHolden]

Note quite, "change this note" is not typically how people conceptualize jazz harmony.
Suppose you are in F major: | Amin7 | Dmin7 | G min | C7| Fmaj7 |
Let's say Amin7 is A7. This changes things quite a bit. Most people won't think of this as "play F major but favor C# instead of C".

If the changes are | A min7 | D min7|, most may treat this as a static F major chord for two bars when improvising.
But | A7 | Dmin7| is a different harmonic movement. Now you have a temporary V-I movement which would separate these two chords functionally and most would use a different kind of vocabulary compared to the original version.

If you have |A min7| D7| instead, again everything changed. Many may treat this as two bars of D7 going to Gmin for example.

I think that communication is a problem on this forum and is potentially the root of a lot of the heated arguments. Yes, you are correct here, and my post is not arguing against what you say. I was assuming this specific case in the OP where all the 3 chords are diatonic from the key, so another way to say what I said is 'mix in the natural minor and harmonic minor' depending on where you are in the 251.

The one you say, about the A7 -> dmin7 in the key of F, that's a different thing as it is a non diatonic chord, so would one be thinking in terms of a suggested key change to Dminor for that bit... so would favour notes that implied that key?

Also you say that for Amin7 -> Dmin7 most would treat it as a static Fmajor chord..... why? Ok they are diatonic in f so it kind of fits, but is it not lazy to do that and more musical to favour their own notes over those in the Fchord?
Is this 'lazyness' as I call it actually not really lazy and part of the sound of jazz?

[Tal_175]

Also you say that for Amin7 -> Dmin7 most would treat it as a static Fmajor chord..... why? Ok they are diatonic in f so it kind of fits, but is it not lazy to do that and more musical to favour their own notes over those in the Fchord?
Is this 'lazyness' as I call it actually not really lazy and part of the sound of jazz?

Amin, Dmin and F major are all tonic chords in the key of F and share important common chord tones. So they are not just "diatonic" but more specifically they are common harmonic substitutes. You can also view them as different extensions of the home chord: Amin7 = Fmaj9 or Dmin7 = Fmaj6. Many greats from Joe Pass to Barry Harris to Pat Martino approached chords as a functional family rather then individually. So you would use overlapping vocabulary in these situations.

In the key of F, C7, Emin7b5, Gminor and Bbmaj#11 would form another chord group that many think and hear as related.

[Strat-itis]

I was assuming this specific case in the OP where all the 3 chords are diatonic from the key, so another way to say what I said is 'mix in the natural minor and harmonic minor' depending on where you are in the 251.

Sure you can do that. You don't always need a parent diatonic scale to fall back on in jazz since you outline the changes, but it's a good application to draw on. I've also been specifically working octatonic scales since they keep the inflection square for 16th notes on vibraphone.

The major 6/dim scale modes in major also gives you an octatonic dorian which I was looking for. Dorian with the blue note. The BH application on a minor 7 where you play the major 6/dim a minor 3rd up from the minor 7 chord gives you a b6 like a tonic minor.

[buduranus2]

BH 6/dim as single note used modally.

Normally in the BH system, a minor ii chord in major (like A-7 in G) is handled by using the relative major’s 6/dim (C6/dim). That effectively treats the ii as if it were a tonic minor, because the scale carries a b6. The system kind of sidesteps the true Dorian sound.

But if you flip it and actually put the 6/dim on the minor i (A- in this case), its modes cover the entire minor ii–V–i cleanly. You get:
• iiø = Locrian + natural 6
• V7 = Phrygian + major 3rd
• i- = Aeolian + major 7

No borrowing, no alteration - all internally consistent.


Say we're in A minor, we use the C6/dim scale but apply it modally. C, D, E, F, G, Ab, A, B

So using that 1 scale transferring to the modes of each degree that gives us:

For over the ii chord, B half dim:
Locrian with an added major 6th.
B, C, D, E, F, G, Ab, A
Sounds a lil spicier and more elegant but maintains the Locrian sound for the minor ii without using altered sounds.

For over the V chord, E7:
Phrygian with an added major 3rd.
E, F, G, Ab, A, B, C, D
Has b9, #9, the added major 3rd for a functional V without borrowing from harmonic minor, and b13.

For over the i chord, A minor:
Aeolian with an added major 7th.
A, B, C, D, E, F, G, Ab
Sounds tonic minor but elegant, like bebop Aeolian.

All from C6/dim. No alterations, no borrowing from harmonic minor. Belee dat.

I found a scale that covers the entire minor 2-5-1 melodically

I personally do not have sufficient knowledge to begin to comprehend what you wrote, which in no way should be misinterpreted as disparagement but rather acknowledgement of my own limitations.

That said, and unless I'm missing something, I routinely use W/H diminished over a minor ii V and it sounds pretty good to me. Seems infinitely simpler.

[Strat-itis]

^ Yes, you can use any dominant scale over a 2-5. This, I'm talking about covering the minor 2, 5, and 1. So the major bebop scale a minor 3rd up from the minor key you're in will outline every single change in the minor 2-5-1.