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Evening, wondering if anyone can shed some light as to why this lick works... am playing through this video of django's all of me solo.
At bar 45 and 46 where it is the D7 chord, the lick to me is focused on an Aminor7th arpeggio. Can anyone explain if there is any theory behind this? It sounds ok, but doesn't correlate with any of my jazz theory knowledge... unlike the bars before which make perfect sense... thanks for any help.
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09-28-2025 04:25 PM
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It’s a common substitution, II for V
Originally Posted by RickyHolden
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Yes, it is common to play Am7 over a D7 but in the transcription, bars 45 and 46 are notes of the D9 chord with added 13th in bar 46.
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Thanks for the reply Christian, you wouldn't have a link to something that talks about this one, as in the 2 for 5 substitution? All the things I read about substitutions don't seem to mention this one.
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Its not a substitution, IIm7's usually accompany (precede) V7's. Originally Posted by RickyHolden
I'd say you're over thinking this, the chord changes are diatonic (key centered) so any notes in the G major scale will work over them. Bet he doesn't play an altered scale in his entire solo (but I'd have to listen to it before making that bet).
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It’s a substitution. IIm can be swapped for V7 Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Yeppers...Ami7 // D9 (no root)--A F# C E (Ami6) Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Well - I mean it’s in the solo. Originally Posted by RickyHolden
The urge to explain why something sounds good is an interesting one. The way I think of it - it sounds good to you, or it doesn’t. If it appeals you learn the sound and use it.
In any case it’s a harmonic feature you are going to hear in a lot in solos.
It’s common in jazz lines to avoid the leading tone in the dominant chord. It softens it out and makes it more like a 7sus4 sound. In a sense the IIm7 is simply a suspension of V7. That’s where it originated in classical harmony, and how Barry Harris used to explain it.
Not sure if that is satisfying to you.
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I take "substitution" to mean fulfilling a similar function, i.e., Am7 will not sound like a dominant chord (D7 or Ab7 in this case). Originally Posted by Christian Miller
That's cheating!! Originally Posted by wolflen
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A C E G is Am7.
If the bassist plays a D, that's 5 b7 9 11, or D9sus (that's counting from the D).
Or, if you simply think Am7 over D7, you get the sound of G instead of F#. Jazz players often use this sound and I'd imagine that you can find it in some books on improvisation, if not the ones you've already consulted.
If you don't like one of them and decide never to play it again, that could be the beginning of your personal harmonic approach to jazz improvisation.
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And yet it is used effectively as a functional substitute very frequently. It doesn’t sound the same - but then if it did it wouldn’t be substitution lol. It would just be the same chord. Originally Posted by Mick-7
I take "substitution" to mean fulfilling a similar function, i.e., Am7 will not sound like a dominant chord (D7 or Ab7 in this case).
That's cheating!!
Different chords sound different.
The concept of function has to do with exchanging chords that have a different sound but some sort of similar in some way. It’s always going to be a bit subjective and subject to the taste test.
Jazz harmony is not really like classical harmony with its three distinct functions. The line between subdominant/predominant and dominant function is clearer in traditional western harmony. In jazz it’s more like tonic and not-tonic for cadences.
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Django did it. It works. Why overthink it? Learn the lick and incorporate it instead of pontificating about the theory.
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I thinking it's one thing in comping and another in soloing.
I'd be less likely to use Am7 as a sub for D7 in comping than soloing.
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It doesn't correlate with your theory knowledge because it's not technically a valid substitution. The D7 chord wants to resolve to the G, right? But the Am chord doesn't have the same function, if you play it by itself it just sits there. But it can have a subdominant function. Originally Posted by RickyHolden
C is the 'correct' subdominant chord in G and Am can be substituted for C because it's the relative minor of C. So the progression Am - D7 - G is valid and viable, hence the ubiquitous ii - V - I.
But you're asking if the Am can be directly substituted for the D7. The answer is yes, if you want to, but it takes away the raw feeling of the D7 - G resolution and changes the mood.
That's the problem (or the blessing) of jazz and other kinds of music, we're not inextricably bound to the 'rules'. They can be changed to suit the effect we want. So if you want the sound of Am7 - GM7 then use it.
Try playing:
Am7 - GM7 - F#7 - Bm7
CM7 - D7 - GM7 - G7
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Ok, some good replies here and am back to chip in. As usual ragman says it like it is, great reply. Also good stuff from Christian, and others so thanks for all getting involved.
As some have said, don't overthink! Christian has nudged at my motivations, well I'm trying to get into the mindset of players as opposed to being a theory god. None the less, the rootless D9 thing seems a valid justification if thinking that way.
I don't think Django was thinking too much like this when he was puffing on cigars and serenading beautiful Parisienne women of varying levels of repute...
He most likely went 'f@ck it, its diatonic to where we are in the progression and sounds ok'. I noticed a similar thing when doing a Grant Green solo and thought it was kind of lazy but also kind of cool.
So I think that's what I'll take from this, the idea of soloing using notes from a different diatonic chord to the one on the sheet l, play with it and refine it and add it to the 'bag of tricks'
I agree with Ragman that this isn't an approach for comping due to the chord function thing.
As an aside, I've been off the forum for a good yeqr or more and not really working on jazz stuff. It's great to get back into it and see all the usual suspects still on the forum.
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This conversation makes me think back to one of Joe Pass's instructional videos, where he talks about ii-V-I progressions and that he thinks of them as a V-I instead. In other words, he considers the ii and the V7 to be basically the same chord and he simplifies the functional harmony in this way. In the Django example above, this has been done in the reverse direction: playing the A-7 arpeggio over the D7. Same basic idea, different flavor.
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Isn't it a major feature of Wes?
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It's hard to imagine a more elementary jazz harmony concept than the interchangeability of ii and V.
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I think Christian said it best, ii line over V "softens" it
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I had a professor at the conservatory who explained the Jazz equivalents to Tonic, Subdominant, and Dominant as: Originally Posted by Christian Miller
- A little of this
- A little of something else (not 'this')
- A lot of something else (definitely not 'this')
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My kinda guy Originally Posted by Bob_Ross
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to me musical theory describes how the music works (as a language).
In jazz the harmony becomes more extended as a function. So the functions of ii and V chords (which are Sub-dominant and Dominant in classical) merge more or less in one.
In classical it makes sense to distinguish these two functions, in jazz not really (or not always).
Once I thought that to certain degree in jazz 'any chord (as a set of particular notes) can be any chord (as a function)', a lot depends on how you imply and how you build up connections, jazz harmonic language is very open so in many cases a lot depends on performer's/listener's will how to interpret it.
And another point:
am7 arp over D7 chords is also a technical way of thinking... (especially for guitar). If you think of it as of extensions of Dominant chord for example (and much easier to think this on piano) then you have nothing to explain, there is no am7 arp, it is just a big D chord.
But I believe thinking also implies phrasing.
If you think it is am7 arp over D7 you feel like you are a bit out and you target somewhere (not only because this is one chord over another but also that you probably have more chords per bar in your mind), if you think in terms of extended big dom chord, then your phrasing can be more static, you do not have to resolve within (because you are in the chord), it becomes more modal (melodic interval/meter thinking rather than melody based on vertical harmony relations)
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Play a common A-6 at the 5th fret. Now play a D9 at the fifth fret. Originally Posted by RickyHolden
Do the two chords look similar??? That's all there is to it.
Don't try to over complicate things.
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Its Micky Baker first chord lessons Bmi7/Bmi6 (E9) Ami7/Ami6 (D9) GMA7 at a fast GJ tempo.. Originally Posted by pawlowski6132
All the notes are G diatonic and will sound good - mix and match them - its triad pairs and whole tone scales with chromatic flavors thrown in
for good measure AND its fun...enjoy the simple..listeners will think your a marvel.--
in this case.theory be dammed
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Many thanks for all the replies, slight correction on what I said in the first post, the lick in question is not Amin7 but to me just a straight Aminor based thing... anyway from all the replies I'm comfortable with this now and have got to grips with this one.
I've another one if anyone wants to help out...
Bar 48 of the same vid, he's on the G7 moving to a resolution back to C.
Notes played are:
Eb, Gb, A, B, C,D, E ( hits this E on bar 1 of the C chord).
How would you rationalize this one? The ABCDE bit I'm interpreting as a simple scale run to hit the E in time for nice harmony with the C chord. ( E is the 3rd of C of course.)
But the Eb and Gb, why pick these notes? They don't match with anything I know at the moment about picking notes go go over a 7 chord.
Thanks for any constructive help, it really is appreciated.
(If you feel the need to flex and tell me this is some kind of fundamental/elementary thing as opposed to actually engaging with my curiosity.... if it boosts your ego then why not).Last edited by RickyHolden; 10-02-2025 at 02:38 PM. Reason: It's a Gb not a Db
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