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Barry told us not to worry about for soloing lol.
Originally Posted by sgcim
But yes, when accompanying, sure.
Many teachers teach the song harmony as a basis. I think this is nice, but you don't have to stick to it of course.
The song harmony is usually diatonic apart form the notes that explicitly chromatic (such as the G# in this case), because GASB standards melodies are mostly diatonic to the prevailing key - even when the chords are chromatic.
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06-10-2025 07:27 AM
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Someone ought kick your ass, Peter. That's Sunny Side Of The Street and all your theory crap is just waffle.
Let's hope Alez can see through it. If he can't, tough, it's up to him. God, we're so gullible.
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lol. For telling you what the changes were? Originally Posted by ragman1
Maybe you could tell us why the E7 is the least of his worries and the rest of the tune is so hard, rather than being all mystical and doing a command-F on your SoundCloud archive?
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Have you suddenly relocated to Texas? Originally Posted by ragman1
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Alez -
Don't let the internet gurus fill your head with a lot of nonsense. Mind you, I suspect your head's already filled with it but that's your lookout.
This tune is an old number, not some clever modern piece. It doesn't need a lot of worrying about, it's very simple, especially in C. It's practically a beginner's tune. You should be able to get through it without any real trouble at all.
All this complex theoretical stuff is completely unnecessary. Just play the tune and enjoy it. Good luck to you.
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vi7 II7 ii7/V7 I6/V7 Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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wait …. Originally Posted by ragman1
Originally Posted by ragman1
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Yeah Am7 to D7 … long D7 … six of one half dozen of the other Originally Posted by garybaldy
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Just get on and play it. Stop trying to pretend Wayne Shorter wrote it.
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TBH Wayne Shorter often paraphrases the melody when he plays on his tunes, which is never a bad bit of advice.
Everything is Wayne Shorter until you practice it.
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Everyone, old and new, plays the Am7 (or vi7). Two bars of II7 just sounds wrong. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
So to remain flippant, as is your tone, it's more 12 of 1 and 0 of the other.
Nothing is worth that sort of tone.
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Abbreviating vi-II in that situation with a long II is pretty common. And just to highlight the absurdity of you policing my “tone” on this one, I’ll quote the guy who threatened me with violence a moment ago. Originally Posted by garybaldy
So a C here instead of the Am. So maybe not everyone, old and new, plays the Am7 there? Originally Posted by ragman1
But sure man, do you.
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So you've illustrated what people play with a chart that nobody uses. Go on youtube and take a look at performances with transcriptions - Django, Bruno, Armstrong. I've looked at many at random and they all play the ii7. No one did the II7 for two bars.
As regards policing, that has become an internet phenomenon which many people like to use. I'm not policing anybody. I'm just responding to your personal curtness towards me which I don't deserve.
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"Six of one, a half dozen of the other" is a pretty common saying for when two things are functionally equivalent. Originally Posted by garybaldy
You might not really care to think of a cadence in that reduced form. In this case, an Am7 and D7 as functionally a big old D7, but it's not an uncommon thing to do and I wasn't being rude or curt. I'm sorry you took it that way, but there's not really any reason for folks to come into this so hot. Not really sure why Sunny Side of the Street is getting folks so riled today.
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Since the next target chord is F, an F# (9) extension on the E7 would be harder to melodically navigate to F although not impossible.
Secondary dominants targeting IIm, IIIm and VIm tend to use b9 drawing from harmonic minor scale.
Sticking with the original scale with G (#9) which is also sounds good against E7, a common blues scale note against dominant chords.
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Who has come into this so hot and riled? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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> Yes, but a rooted G6, to me, gives a nice bass movement.
I've seen that root movement in F F#dim7 C/G.
> Here's a track I did way back in 2015. This is in Eb but that doesn't matter, it's fine in C or whatever you like. But see what I'm saying, the E7 is just a passing sound, there are other bits of the tune that are far less easy to navigate.
Nice playing.
> You could play that on the bridge of a C rhythm changes as well
> And you could play E13 on Sunny Side
> So long as you hear it.
Point taken. I'm not a natural. Before I hear, I need to point my ears in a direction. This forum helps me a lot with that.
> All this complex theoretical stuff is completely unnecessary. Just play the tune and enjoy it.
My focus (for this thread) is not on being able to play the tune. I wanted to use its E7 chords as an example to learn about extensions on dominants, much like I've done on a couple previous (related) threads.
> TBH Wayne Shorter often paraphrases the melody when he plays on his tunes, which is never a bad bit of advice.
> Barry told us not to worry about for soloing lol.
The melody is a great resource. I guess Barry said that looking at it is not mandatory.
> I've looked at many at random and they all play the ii7. No one did the II7 for two bars.
Not for the standard 8 measure bridge, I think. But I've seen a long D7 in the very same place on the bridge in I've Found a New Baby, as the previous measure already has a Am:
E7 | % | Am | % |
D7 | % | G7 | E7 ||
> Since the next target chord is F, an F# (9) extension on the E7 would be harder to melodically navigate to F although not impossible.
> Secondary dominants targeting IIm, IIIm and VIm tend to use b9 drawing from harmonic minor scale.
> Sticking with the original scale with G (#9) which is also sounds good against E7, a common blues scale note against dominant chords.
All noted, thanks.
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There should be a command to automatically delete the post you're about to write. If there was, I'd use it now.
Sunny Side is a pretty simple tune. The harmony isn't hard to hear. The usual substitutions for dominant chords are altered fifths and ninths in various combinations. You can get looped backing tracks from various sources.
Tonal center is C, if you think that way. So, when you get to the E7 chord you have to adjust the G to G# for it to sound vanilla. If it's helpful, you can think Aharmmin or 5th mode Aharmmin. I don't find that helpful. Tonal center and adjustment works for me.
So, now you've got the first E7. I don't hear it as a passing chord. The tune hits it hard, to my ear. Now you're free to sub in the usual suspects, ie, various combinations of altered 5ths and 9ths (there are other possibilities which I'll ignore here). Loop the backing and try them all. You'll hear which ones you like. Same for every other chord.
Obviously, this obvious advice is too obvious.
If you get something you like that isn't common, congratulations are in order. You're starting to develop your own harmonic sense.
This message will self-destruct, Mr Phelps ...
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Interesting, thanks. If you did this, you'd treat both E7s mostly the same: one would be altered because that's what's diatonic (phrygian turned major), the other would be altered because it's V of Am going to Am.
When I'm playing, taking these extensions from the key is a lot easier for me to achieve that any other approach.
Don't delete the post!
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I want to make sure I understand "phrygian turned major". Originally Posted by alez
Interesting, thanks. If you did this, you'd treat both E7s mostly the same: one would be altered because that's what's diatonic (phrygian turned major), the other would be altered because it's V of Am going to Am.
When I'm playing, taking these extensions from the key is a lot easier for me to achieve that any other approach.
Don't delete the post!
If you took the first E7 as phrygian, it would be all white keys, that is, a Cmajor scale starting from E. But, I'm suggesting raising the G to G#. That's changing the b3 to a 3 (counting from E as root). Is that what you mean by phrygian to major?
All I'm thinking is that "I'm in C tonal center but E7 has a G# instead of a G".
I'm aware that makes it 5th mode A harmonic minor, but I don't find thinking that way to be helpful. This is not to say it's not helpful to others, rather, it's just that there's more than one way to go about it.
So, in this situation, against E7, I might play all the white keys with the one adjustment to G#. Starting from E, that's Root, b9 3 11 5 b13 7. Throw away the 11 and don't ask why.
Then, what's left is an E7b9b13. Give the bassist the root, and try to play the rest. G# B D F C. Not easily playable. Tell yourself that the 5th will be heard as an overtone of the root and throw it out of the chord. Now you've got G# D F C. xx6768. Looks like a rootless Bb9.
To my ear it doesn't sound right as a replacement for the E7 in Sunny Side. But, it does sound good as a passing chord for the first two beats of that E7, followed by xx6757.
Speaking more generally, for alterations, one way to go about evaluating them is to comp with the altered chords. So, instead of the first E7, you try E7b9, then E7#11, then E7b13 etc etc etc. Or think tritone and try alterations of Bb7.
Or you can introduce movement by trying Bm7b5 to E7b9 or whatever. The point is to do it in comping first. When you hear a sound you like, try the same alteration(s) in a solo line.
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> I want to make sure I understand "phrygian turned major".
Exactly as per your description: 6 tones from the key signature + G# = C D E F G# A B... I thought I'd call that "E phrygian turned major".
The remainder of your post is a gem, I'm taking careful note of the advice there including "give the bassist the root, and try to play the rest", "the 5th will be heard as an overtone of the root and throw it out of the chord" and "the point is to do it in comping first". I'm thankful.
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If we’re being fancy, it’s actually for real called Phrygian Dominant, so you’re not far off. Originally Posted by alez
Fifth mode of harmonic minor.
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Makes sense to me. Scale names that conform to the formula "greek mode but" work for me, including lydian dominant aka lydian b7, etc. Practical I guess.
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The naming conventions are a bit complicated, but that just reflects the fact that the harmony is a bit complicated.
If the tune is in Amaj, then you could use the term "E7 scale", which would refer to Emixo. Some pros do use the term, but it requires context.
Say, if the tune is in Amin, then the "E7 scale" might not be Emixo. Rather, it might actually be E7b9b13, emerging from E phrygian dominant, aka, 5th mode A melodic minor.
Or there might be an argument that it should be something else, the point being that "E7 scale" isn't a precise enough term.
OTOH, if you think tonal center, chord tones and adjustments, you don't have to worry about those things. If E7 contains some notes that aren't in the tonal center, you just adjust them. So, maybe you could call it "E7 from Am tonal center", but nobody does that.
But, in order to do that, you need to find the notes in the chords and tonal centers you use. My impression is that some players, maybe most, find these things by patterns rather than note names -- so their thinking has to facilitate identification of the correct pattern. Clearly, that can work very well. My only point is that there is an alternative that also can work.
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That makes so much sense.
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