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D7 | % | G7 | % |
C7 | % | F7 | % ||
What extensions would you apply and what's the theory or "rules" that relate to that?
I guess C7 and F7 are unaltered.
I'd like to know whether the "V of minor" nature of the other two calls for alteration or the fact that they don't go to their respective I minor makes them unaltered like the other two. Notably, using an E on the D7 (unaltered 9) takes my ears away from the original key abruptly and I don't know if that's how it's supposed to work.
Thanks
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06-08-2025 11:19 AM
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I think you most commonly see straight up dominant stuff over all of them.
Originally Posted by alez
D7 | % | G7 | % |
C7 | % | F7 | % ||
What extensions would you apply and what's the theory or "rules" that relate to that?
I guess C7 and F7 are unaltered.
I'd like to know whether the "V of minor" nature of the other two calls for alteration or the fact that they don't go to their respective I minor makes them unaltered like the other two. Notably, using an E on the D7 (unaltered 9) takes my ears away from the original key abruptly and I don't know if that's how it's supposed to work.
Thanks
If I were going to tinker, than usually flat 9 and flat 13 on the first two and 9 sharp 11 on the third.
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> I think you most commonly see straight up dominant stuff over all of them.
OK, so the E on the D7 is not "bold", just normal?
Thanks!
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Grab an omnibook and see real quick. Bird loved putting the ii before them. So even on D7, you’d see Am7 then D7b9 or something. Originally Posted by alez
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> Grab an omnibook and see real quick. Bird loved putting the ii before them. So even on D7, you’d see Am7 then D7b9 or something.
Nice one. I just checked Moose the Mooche and Anthropology. Plenty going on. Very interesting.
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Any dominant 7 chord can be a 9 or 13 chord of some kind. I typically do diatonic 9 and 13. Maybe a b9 if I’m playing it as ii V, ii V. I don’t think it would come to me on a gig, yet.
I also like to go down the line.
D7 Db7 C7 Cb7
the Db7 being a Tritone for G and Cb7 being a Tritone for F.
I think of this as a riff from D7 and so I’m not sure if it’s supposed to be Cb7 or B7, theoretically speaking.
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Google 'rhythm changes bridge' and check out the videos. There are several.
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But that’s not as fun Originally Posted by ragman1
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A rhythm section bridge has a million possibilities, and it's great to listen to a lot of versions to see what everyone's doing.
You could of course keep it pretty inside and play unaltered dominant harmony. This might include typical bebop enclosure stuff.
You could play 2-5 licks. Again with bebop language.
You could play pentatonic based blues vocabulary (with a lot of major thirds thrown in the emphasize the dominant sound).
You could play altered/diminished harmony (over any of the chords).
You could play whole tone stuff, including moving augmented triads around in whole steps.
You could use superimposed pentatonics (for example, A-, Ab-, G-, Gb-, similar to Allen's tritone subs).
You could use Martino style minor subs (play minor from the 7, b9, #11, #5).
Recently I've been messing with using Messien mode 6 (sometimes called augmented bebop) over dominant chords.
Really the possibilities are endless, and the real question is what sound you're doing for. Some of these are bebop sounds, some hard bop sounds, some very modern sounds. So of course the best answer is to listen to different versions, find the vocabulary you like, and go from there.
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Here is a wonderfully instructive example from the Joe Pass Guitar Style, one of his continuous 8th note exercises and it illustrates a boat-load of ideas.
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> Any dominant 7 chord can be a 9 or 13 chord of some kind. I typically do diatonic 9 and 13. Maybe a b9 if I’m playing it as ii V, ii V. I don’t think it would come to me on a gig, yet.
By diatonic do you mean diatonic?
As in E.b9b13, A9b13, B.b9b13.
> Google 'rhythm changes bridge' and check out the videos. There are several.
Oh, great, will do.
> A rhythm section bridge has a million possibilities, and it's great to listen to a lot of versions to see what everyone's doing.
Right now I'm more interested in the "default" approach, I'd like to get familiar with that sound before any attempt to spice it up, hence posting this in the theory forum and using the term "rules".
But I read your comment with great interest of course. The last paragraph says much.
> Here is a wonderfully instructive example from the Joe Pass Guitar Style, one of his continuous 8th note exercises and it illustrates a boat-load of ideas.
Thank you for taking the effort.
I find it mind blowing. He gives the 4 chords a similar treatment, regardless of the first two being V of minor and the other two being V of major. And, surely unable to choose between unaltered and altered (joke), he goes on to chain up both while inserting a few IIs
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Joe pass wasn't a theory nut, I don't think he'd have a clue what you mean by the first two being V of Major and the second two being V of minor. Originally Posted by alez
>I find it mind blowing. He gives the 4 chords a similar treatment, regardless of the first two being V of minor and the other two being V of major. And, surely unable to choose between unaltered and altered (joke), he goes on to chain up both while inserting a few IIs
I don't know what you mean either. Is this like the I of a blues actually being the V of the V? Because that's a load of malarkey, theory for a jazz harmony Dissertation. Completely useless in performance.
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> Joe pass wasn't a theory nut, I don't think he'd have a clue what you mean by the first two being V of Major and the second two being V of minor.
Theory comes after the fact anyway. Pass knew his music. Theory is just a way to look at it.
> I don't know what you mean either. Is this like the I of a blues actually being the V of the V? Because that's a load of malarkey, theory for a jazz harmony Dissertation. Completely useless in performance.
Point taken. Forget "V of" then. It's still meaningful to me that he seems to focus on the chord with no consideration to the key signature. If you chose to use diatonic extensions, the D7 would be quite different from the F7. He doesn't do that.
I'm OK with a bit of "theory for a jazz harmony dissertation", which is why I use the theory forum.
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I think I know what he means … Originally Posted by AllanAllen
In tunes that are chilling out mostly in one key, dominants that resolve to ii iii or vi *tend* to like minor cadence sounds — b9 b13.
Dominants that resolve to IV V or I *tend* to like major cadence sounds — 9 13. Obviously the I chord can get whatever.
That’s true-ish even when it’s cycling dominants. So in the key of Bb a D7 going to G7 might like those minor cadence sounds.
It’s a useful little framework, but not a hard and fast rule. It’s probably true a preponderance of the time — more so post bebop, less so pre bebop. Also dominant cycles throw a wrench into it and are more flexible. I think if I’m approaching a tune like maybe All of Me, that would probably be my starting point but not something I would stick to with any real fidelity.
A useful starting point. Not more.
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Coming from an exercise, it's doing a lot in one place, but really if you play over it a few times, you begin to feel the melodic shape and it's a really nice example of how a master player massages those changes. It's very, very common to precede each dominant of the bridge with its appropriate "II" minor. So Am7 D7/Dm7 G7/Gm7 C7/Cm7 F7/ Also you have this nice transition created by the lowering of the 3rd from, e.g. D7 to Dm7 etc. Once you have turned all those Dominant 7 chords into ii-V progressions, you can then use all the subs youre accustomed to using in that context. Originally Posted by alez
> Here is a wonderfully instructive example from the Joe Pass Guitar Style, one of his continuous 8th note exercises and it illustrates a boat-load of ideas.
Thank you for taking the effort.
I find it mind blowing. He gives the 4 chords a similar treatment, regardless of the first two being V of minor and the other two being V of major. And, surely unable to choose between unaltered and altered (joke), he goes on to chain up both while inserting a few IIs
BTW Joe Pass called the Rhythm Changes bridge the "Sears and Roebuck" bridge.
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Joe Pass could actually talk quite cogently about theory and since he retained a very exact memory of almost any performance, he could dissect his lines and often did so in workshops. His best book Joe Pass Guitar Style has a lot of excellent "player's theory" in it. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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I dunno, I just remember him holding a plain G13 in a video and not being able to name it. This is not an argument, just me citing my source. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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That makes sense, I don’t know much about post-bebop. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Charlie Christian and Lester Young sound like they’re running the changes to me with dominant/bluesy riffs. But, I haven’t transcribed much rhythm changes, just used my ear to note they follow the dominants.
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There are no rules Originally Posted by alez
But I get what you're saying. All of the more modern outside sounding stuff is played by guys who can do the inside stuff too.
Listen to the classic recordings: Sonny Rollins, Charlie Parker, Coltrane, Bud Powell, etc. Never a bad place to start learning language.
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> But I get what you're saying. All of the more modern outside sounding stuff is played by guys who can do the inside stuff too.
That's exactly what I'm after. And I'm trying to establish whether "inside" is mostly diatonic (which implies alterations in a few cases, e.g. E7, B7, A7) or mostly unaltered. But, as always with music, no simple answer will close this one out
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> I think I know what he means …
I love the way you've worded all that. It helps me understand.
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