Use of the "leading" tone "ti" as chord extension

[alez]

I seem to remember having heard that the use of the "leading" tone "ti" as chord extension is not always a good choice as its presence provides a "dominant of I" flavour that may not be desirable. (Key of C....) Of course Em7 and CMaj7 have it (not as an extension but I mean there's no "dominant of C" flavour present in them). But, if I understand correctly, the point stands for A7 (a flat 9 seems more suitable than a natural 9). Questions:

• What I just said about A7: is it so (wholly or partly)?
• For extension choice, do you differentiate the case of a A7 resolving to Dm(7) (i.e. functioning as a dominant) from the case of a A7 "on its own" followed by whatever else (like for example Am7 or D7)?
• Moving on to D7 specifically, how do you feel about using its natural 13?

Oh, this the THEORY subforum, I suggest we're fine to skip the usual "play it and decide for yourself" but it's up to you

[pamosmusic]

I seem to remember having heard that the use of the "leading" tone "ti" as chord extension is not always a good choice as its presence provides a "dominant of I" flavour that may not be desirable. (Key of C....) Of course Em7 and CMaj7 have it (not as an extension but I mean there's no "dominant of C" flavour present in them). But, if I understand correctly, the point stands for A7 (a flat 9 seems more suitable than a natural 9). Questions:

• What I just said about A7: is it so (wholly or partly)?
• For extension choice, do you differentiate the case of a A7 resolving to Dm(7) (i.e. functioning as a dominant) from the case of a A7 "on its own" followed by whatever else (like for example Am7 or D7)?
• Moving on to D7 specifically, how do you feel about using its natural 13?

Oh, this the THEORY subforum, I suggest we're fine to skip the usual "play it and decide for yourself" but it's up to you

I have never heard this before and don’t think it’s even a little bit true.

• What I just said about A7: is it so (wholly or partly)?

Natural 9 on the VI7 chord isn’t super common in bebop and later, but it’s not unheard of and is much more common in earlier playing. Play the opening phrase of My Ideal. “Will I ever FIND” … that “find” is a D natural over C7, going to Fm7, in the key of Eb.

• For extension choice, do you differentiate the case of a A7 resolving to Dm(7) (i.e. functioning as a dominant) from the case of a A7 "on its own" followed by whatever else (like for example Am7 or D7)?

Maybe a little bit. First of all, see above. But I would say that in a dominant cycle — maybe rhythm changes bridge is a good example — where that VI7 chord isnt going to minor, the natural 9 is pretty common even in bebop stuff.

So either way that natural 9 is not uncommon, but I’d say it’s quite common when that VI chord isn’t resolving to ii-

• Moving on to D7 specifically, how do you feel about using its natural 13?

This is extraordinarily common. Like … the normal vanilla choice. Beautiful sound and used all the time.

So my question to you would be — where did you hear this?

There is plenty of room for disagreement and interpretation on theory, but this one is weird enough that I would be skeptical about other stuff I heard from the source of this one.

[Mick-7]

For extension choice, do you differentiate the case of a A7 resolving to Dm(7) (i.e. functioning as a dominant) from the case of a A7 "on its own" followed by whatever else (like for example Am7 or D7)?

People tend to use melodic minor (D mm) in that instance, since it includes the maj.7 & the b3rd of Dm, (b3rd = b13 of A7) - but Dm7 has a different function than Dm6/Dm^7.

As a general rule, the resolution of a dominant chord will imply or suggest its alterations and extensions, but of course it's always a matter of choice.

[Tal_175]

In theory (and in common practice, but obviously with a lot of exceptions), whether a secondary dominant is altered or not depends on the diatonic 6th in relation to the chord root. If it is b6 than altering is the basic sound. If the 6th is natural, unaltered dominant is the basic sound. These sounds are the most diatonic (or inside) options.
So,
V/IV and V/V are unaltered.

V/II, V/III and V/VI are altered.

V/II (A7 in this case), typically gets a non-diatonic b9, #9 instead of the leading note as these are more conventional choices with the b6.

Note also A7 going to Amin-D7 is not treated differently than A7 going to D7 (Amin just heard as delaying the resolution). Here A7 is altered in many tunes like Yesterday (which has a melody note F over A7) despite a non-minor target. Again, because altering gives you the more diatonic sound in this case.

[Christian Miller]

I come from 1723 and I don’t know that si is

I only understand the hexachord


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[ragman1]

I seem to remember having heard that the use of the "leading" tone "ti" as chord extension is not always a good choice as its presence provides a "dominant of I" flavour that may not be desirable. (Key of C....) Of course Em7 and CMaj7 have it (not as an extension but I mean there's no "dominant of C" flavour present in them). But, if I understand correctly, the point stands for A7 (a flat 9 seems more suitable than a natural 9). Questions:

• What I just said about A7: is it so (wholly or partly)?
• For extension choice, do you differentiate the case of a A7 resolving to Dm(7) (i.e. functioning as a dominant) from the case of a A7 "on its own" followed by whatever else (like for example Am7 or D7)?
• Moving on to D7 specifically, how do you feel about using its natural 13?

Oh, this the THEORY subforum, I suggest we're fine to skip the usual "play it and decide for yourself" but it's up to you

Using C major for examples.

The leading tone 'ti' or B is only an extension when the triad doesn't include it. It's not an extension of Em, G7 or Bm7b5, it's part of the chord.

It only becomes an extension when it's added to a chord that doesn't already contain it.

C + B = CM7
Dm + B = Dm6
F + B = Fb5
Am + B = Am9

So CM7 is actually an extended chord. In jazz, 4-note chords are the norm so FM7 + B is FM7b5 or FM7#11.

Your question is whether adding the B is always a good choice because its presence can invoke a dominant-to-tonic sound.

I would say no for CM7 because that's already the tonic chord. There is a school of thought that says the M7 as the final chord is a bit 'floaty' and the C6 is better.

Dm6 is usually used in a minor key so doesn't really count. Using the B in a solo over Dm7 is sometimes frowned on but personally I ignore it. It certainly doesn't imply a dominant-to-one sound, though.

FM7#11 is really a colour chord, probably rare in C major but, again, I like the sound of it in certain circumstances in a solo. But, all in all, I wouldn't say it provokes a dominant sound.

Am9, of course, is a lovely extended sound and certainly doesn't imply a leading-to-dominant sound.

So, in C major I'd say no, adding the B as an extension doesn't mean it wants to resolve to the dominant or the tonic.

__________

But there are exceptions when secondary dominants are involved. Using an A7 to get to Dm is one but that implies a temporary shift to the key of Dm and the B would be flat to make A7b9. So that doesn't count.

Changing Em to E7b9 to get to Am doesn't count either. The B is already there.

Changing Dm to D7 and adding the B makes it D13. That can be used as in D13 - G7alt - C6 (xx4557 - xx3446 - xx5555).

So it looks like the preponderance of evidence indicates you can generally use the 'ti' as an extension without WW3 breaking out

[rpjazzguitar]

I tried to avoid a "try it yourself" answer.

I played the various options. None of them sound unusable to me. And, they all sound a little different, or maybe a lot different. Some of the common choices sound too familiar -- meaning, I've heard them enough and I would try to do something else.

So, I don't know how to make this choice based on theory.

[bako]

Interesting question.

Half steps up or down have a stronger gravity than whole steps do.
So B-C or Bb-A or Db-C or G#-A
At the same Bb-C or B-A or D-C or G-A are also pretty sounds and have sufficient gravity to get there.
‘As rpjazzguitar suggests they are all common choice sounds.

[alez]

Thank you for the insightful responses. Reading each of the explanations was enlightening.

> There is plenty of room for disagreement and interpretation on theory, but this one is weird enough that I would be skeptical about other stuff I heard from the source of this one.

I'm safe, I don't remember a source so it was probably my own misinterpretation of something random someone said or wrote.

> In theory (and in common practice, but obviously with a lot of exceptions), whether a secondary dominant is altered or not depends on the diatonic 6th in relation to the chord root. If it is b6 than altering is the basic sound. If the 6th is natural, unaltered dominant is the basic sound. These sounds are the most diatonic (or inside) options.

But that rule implies using the natural 13 of A7, which seems odd (certainly not "inside").

[ragman1]

In theory (and in common practice, but obviously with a lot of exceptions), whether a secondary dominant is altered or not depends on the diatonic 6th in relation to the chord root. If it is b6 than altering is the basic sound. If the 6th is natural, unaltered dominant is the basic sound. These sounds are the most diatonic (or inside) options.

If a dominant has an altered note then it's altered, like D7#9.

Including a natural B in D7 makes it D13. That's not altered. I think you might be confusing extensions and alterations. Adding the 6, 9,11, 13 extends the chord but changing notes # or b is altering the chord.

But that rule implies using the natural 13 of A7, which seems odd (certainly not "inside").

If you mean playing A7b13 (5x566x) before a Dm7 then the A7 is altered.

If you mean playing A13 (5x567x) then it's not altered. But, I agree, the presence of the F# before Dm7 makes it sound altered because of the dissonance.

Several players' favorite move is a 13b9 chord before the minor. It's considered a modern sound.

[Tal_175]

Thank you for the insightful responses. Reading each of the explanations was enlightening.

> There is plenty of room for disagreement and interpretation on theory, but this one is weird enough that I would be skeptical about other stuff I heard from the source of this one.

I'm safe, I don't remember a source so it was probably my own misinterpretation of something random someone said or wrote.

> In theory (and in common practice, but obviously with a lot of exceptions), whether a secondary dominant is altered or not depends on the diatonic 6th in relation to the chord root. If it is b6 than altering is the basic sound. If the 6th is natural, unaltered dominant is the basic sound. These sounds are the most diatonic (or inside) options.

But that rule implies using the natural 13 of A7, which seems odd (certainly not "inside").

In the key of C, A7 is V/II and its sixth is F (b13, not natural 13), so it's typically altered.

[alez]

Ah!, totally get it now, thanks.

[ragman1]

All chords are independent, if that's the right word. An A7 is an A7 no matter the key.

As tal said, the F in A7b13 is diatonic to D minor but it's still an altered A7 chord.

---------------

Here's something. See what you think :-)

Let's say you play A7b13 to Dm but you change the Dm7 to Dm6, which is quite common. Normally B's are flat (Bb) in D minor.

So, by adding the natural B to the Dm, have you extended or altered the Dm chord?

[alez]

> So, by adding the natural B to the Dm, have you extended or altered the Dm chord?

I'm not knowledgeable.

I never think of a major 6 or 13 as altered.

I'd say it's a 6 because the b7 is not there. Therefore, neither extended nor altered, just a chord tone like on the Em7 and CMaj7 examples. In this case, of the type called "guide tones" like on the CMaj7.

[ragman1]

> So, by adding the natural B to the Dm, have you extended or altered the Dm chord?

I'm not knowledgeable.

I never think of a major 6 or 13 as altered.

I'd say it's a 6 because the b7 is not there. Therefore, neither extended nor altered, just a chord tone like on the Em7 and CMaj7 examples. In this case, of the type called "guide tones" like on the CMaj7.

This is from Google AI (sorry) but it's very clear. I suppose the only question is whether you believe what AI says!

'A minor sixth (m6) chord is considered an extended chord, not an altered chord.

Extended chords add notes beyond the basic triad, while altered chords introduce notes that are chromatically different from the underlying key.

The m6 chord, by adding a major sixth above the minor triad, falls into the category of extended chords.

Extended Chords:

These chords build upon the basic triad by adding additional notes, such as the 7th, 9th, 11th, or 13th. The m6 chord adds a major 6th, making it an extension of the minor triad.

Altered Chords:

These chords introduce notes that are chromatically different from the notes in the underlying scale or key. For example, a dominant 7th chord (V7) can be altered by adding a flat 9th (b9) or a sharp 5th (#5), which are not part of the standard diatonic scale.

In summary:

While the m6 chord might sound "altered" due to the addition of the major 6th, it's technically an extension because it's derived from the basic triad and doesn't introduce chromatically altered notes.'

[alez]

It seems then that A7 finds use in 3 flavours out of 4 possible combinations:

> People tend to use melodic minor (D mm) in that instance, since it includes the maj.7 & the b3rd of Dm, (b3rd = b13 of A7)

This is A9b13.

> In theory (and in common practice, but obviously with a lot of exceptions), whether a secondary dominant is altered or not depends on the diatonic 6th in relation to the chord root.

This takes us to A7b9b13.

> Several players' favorite move is a 13b9 chord before the minor. It's considered a modern sound.

This is A13b9 (followed by Dm).

[Mick-7]

It seems then that A7 finds use in 3 flavours out of 4 possible combinations:

> People tend to use melodic minor (D mm) in that instance, since it includes the maj.7 & the b3rd of Dm, (b3rd = b13 of A7)

This is A9b13.

Or A7#5, A9#5.

> Several players' favorite move is a 13b9 chord before the minor. It's considered a modern sound.

This is A13b9 (followed by Dm).

Or Eb7#9.

[ragman1]

It seems then that A7 finds use in 3 flavours out of 4 possible combinations:

> People tend to use melodic minor (D mm) in that instance, since it includes the maj.7 & the b3rd of Dm, (b3rd = b13 of A7)

This is A9b13.

> In theory (and in common practice, but obviously with a lot of exceptions), whether a secondary dominant is altered or not depends on the diatonic 6th in relation to the chord root.

This takes us to A7b9b13.

> Several players' favorite move is a 13b9 chord before the minor. It's considered a modern sound.

This is A13b9 (followed by Dm).

All this is true. What's your point?

[alez]

> All this is true. What's your point?

Oh, just an observation. I hadn't thought of that before.

[Christian Miller]

Sometimes the leading tone leads.

Sometimes it just chills.


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[supersoul]

Sometimes the leading tone leads.

Sometimes it just chills.


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That's almost worthy of a t-shirt