How do you approach outlining extensions for bop melody?

[Strat-itis]

For melody playing: I've noticed in bop that hitting the extensions is important to the overall sound. The extensions to a chord are just a triad a whole step up from the root. But how do you like to organize getting into them in musical melodic shapes? Maybe do shapes that emphasize 1 or 2 extensions rather than necessarily all 3?

[pamosmusic]

I've noticed in bop that hitting the extensions is important to the overall sound. The extensions to a chord are just a triad a whole step up from the root. But how do you like to organize getting into them in musical shapes? Maybe do shapes that emphasize 1 or 2 extensions rather than necessarily all 3?

An extension has to be a melody note so you have to think of it as part of a melody, so for me there are three ways of working on that that all do slightly different things:

1. Voiceleading pairs. Groups of notes that work really well together … 3/7, 1/5, 9/13, 9/5, 3/13, 1/11, etc. Anything thats a fourth/fifth apart will result in common tone or stepwise motion through cycle of four stuff, which is super common in jazz. So you can make guide tone lines, work in little chromatic movements that will give you actually logical altered extensions, and that sort of thing. They form the basis for great melodies. So if I want a 9 over C major, I’ll maybe try a ii-V-I going E over the Dm, E over the G7, D over the C. Or 9 13 9 … from there you can tinker to get cool stuff. E Eb D being an obvious one, but loads of others.

2. Playing triads with one added note. Focus on the way the added note wants to resolve. So C major with a D, that extra note will really pull back down toward C. The tension is when you resist that.

3. Using upper structure triads or other shapes that include the extension. So in this case … G major or something to get D in there.

There can be tons of overlap on these but I find they’re distinct enough to be useful and work on kind of separately

[Christian Miller]

I use a Stefon Harris style approach for coloristic harmony.

That’s somewhat similar to but a bit more nuanced than upper structure triads.

So C E Em on Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 for instance

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[pamosmusic]

I use a Stefon Harris approach for coloristic harmony.


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Ah yeah, my second one is obviously lifted from Stefon via Jordan.

[rpjazzguitar]

My approach is different and not guaranteed to make you sound like a jazz player. It might build harmonic sophistication, but it doesn't give you vocabulary.

It's to learn the sounds of the intervals over major, subdominant and dominant chords - to the point where I can scat sing a solo with them - and then I try to play that. Dominant chords are particularly rich for this approach.

One way to do it is to play a ii V in C. Then, start subbing chords for the G7. So, you could try G7b9. That allows you to hear the way the Ab (b9) sounds over the V7. Then try it with a #9, a b13 and a #11. Individually, or in combinations. Try to sing lines with those notes.

[Strat-itis]

Since my OP was unclear I mean for melody playing.

My approach is different and not guaranteed to make you sound like a jazz player. It might build harmonic sophistication, but it doesn't give you vocabulary.

It's to learn the sounds of the intervals over major, subdominant and dominant chords - to the point where I can scat sing a solo with them - and then I try to play that. Dominant chords are particularly rich for this approach.

One way to do it is to play a ii V in C. Then, start subbing chords for the G7. So, you could try G7b9. That allows you to hear the way the Ab (b9) sounds over the V7. Then try it with a #9, a b13 and a #11. Individually, or in combinations. Try to sing lines with those notes.

Great. That is one of the most taught ways how to exercise extensions now that I think about it - different subs or family.

[James W]

Extracting triads or seventh chord arpeggios, both in root position or inverted, from the relevant scale.

Is there such a thing as unmusical melodic shape?

There is a chapter on extensions in Bert Ligon's Comprehensive Technique For Jazz Musicians book (sorry Peter, another book ...)

[pamosmusic]

Oh I’ve had that one for about fifteen years

[Strat-itis]

Is there such a thing as unmusical melodic shape?

Oh you betcha.

[Mick-7]

Is there such a thing as unmusical melodic shape?

Oh you betcha.

Seems like an oxymoron, if it's melodic it's not unmusical, and vice versa. The melodic phrase does not suit the harmony, is that what you mean?

[Strat-itis]

I just mean tips for organizing the extensions into the lines for it to sound good or natural. Beyond only knowing 9, 11, 13.

[rpjazzguitar]

It seems to me that the usual way to get extensions into your playing is to learn jazz vocabulary by transcribing.

The alternative I offered is based on scat singing and training your ears to hear the harmonic devices by playing chords with the extensions you're interested in.

I may not really appreciate the question though. "Organizing extensions"? I thought my suggestion about playing the V7 with various alterations addresses that. And, you can certainly identify scales that have the notes, if you prefer to think that way.

But, maybe I'm missing something.

[James W]

for it to sound good or natural

This is the crux of the issue. Only you can figure out why something sounds this way (or not) to you. How does one play a ninth above a chord and make it sound bad or unnatural? Must be something to do with bad articulation, phrasing or rhythm - more than something to do with how one organises the particular interval in question, don't you think?

[Strat-itis]

Although this is useful information too, especially for my instrument.

An extension has to be a melody note so you have to think of it as part of a melody, so for me there are three ways of working on that that all do slightly different things:

1. Voiceleading pairs. Groups of notes that work really well together … 3/7, 1/5, 9/13, 9/5, 3/13, 1/11, etc. Anything thats a fourth/fifth apart will result in common tone or stepwise motion through cycle of four stuff, which is super common in jazz. So you can make guide tone lines, work in little chromatic movements that will give you actually logical altered extensions, and that sort of thing. They form the basis for great melodies. So if I want a 9 over C major, I’ll maybe try a ii-V-I going E over the Dm, E over the G7, D over the C. Or 9 13 9 … from there you can tinker to get cool stuff. E Eb D being an obvious one, but loads of others.

2. Playing triads with one added note. Focus on the way the added note wants to resolve. So C major with a D, that extra note will really pull back down toward C. The tension is when you resist that.

3. Using upper structure triads or other shapes that include the extension. So in this case … G major or something to get D in there.

There can be tons of overlap on these but I find they’re distinct enough to be useful and work on kind of separately

[Strat-itis]

It seems to me that the usual way to get extensions into your playing is to learn jazz vocabulary by transcribing.

I do that. Wondering if anyone has methodology for it since that approach is important too.

I may not really appreciate the question though. "Organizing extensions"?

Yes. BH is all about learning note syntax for single note playing without the use of transcribing, only formulating lines. But in Chris class all I've seen so far is playing all diatonic chords for a scale, but never any method for how to use them. Also family subs.

This is the crux of the issue. Only you can figure out why something sounds this way (or not) to you. How does one play a ninth above a chord and make it sound bad or unnatural? Must be something to do with bad articulation, phrasing or rhythm - more than something to do with how one organizes the particular interval in question, don't you think?

I'm just asking if anyone has tips for melodic shapes they like for including the extensions. I do go about it myself.

[Strat-itis]

Lil Milt extension lick on bar 5 of this transcription at 4:50. I tried to post a pic of it but the forum wouldn't let me. He just plays the root of Bb7 then plays Abmaj7 which hits all the extensions of Bb7: C, Eb, G. I also liked bar 6 where he lept from the 9th down to the 11th and then played scalarly.

Maybe step 1 would be integrate 3-5-7-9, 5-7-9-11, and 7-9-11-13 arps?

[pamosmusic]

Lil Milt extension lick on bar 5 of this transcription at 4:50. I tried to post a pic of it but the forum wouldn't let me. He just plays the root of Bb7 then plays Abmaj7 which hits all the extensions of Bb7: C, Eb, G. I also liked bar 6 where he lept from the 9th down to the 11th and then played scalarly.

Maybe step 1 would be integrate 3-5-7-9, 5-7-9-11, and 7-9-11-13 arps?

I don't know. Those are super common over the dominant and worth working on resolving to the tonic. Then the same over the diminished subs.

3-9s are really common everywhere else, so that's worth doing.

I'm not sure about the others.

That minor arpeggio off the fifth of the minor, for example, is reasonably common (maybe more common later in the hard bop vocab) but it's really really frequently running the arpeggio up to the seventh, then stepping down to the third of the parent chord ... so over a Dm7, it might be A C E G down to F. So it's a really lovely way of landing on that 3rd, but I'm not sure that's best understood as an upperstructure, or as a melodic device (enclosure) over the third.

Over the major, those chords that contain the 4 would end up feeling a lot more like off chords wanting to pull back to the main chord, than like extensions. Which is cool, but not really the same thing -- and in bebop, you'd probably see a diminished chord in that role. You could raise the fourths, but that wouldn't be a super beboppy sound.

I got a lot of mileage out of working on just triads, and that's even with the weirder extensions. There was a period of a couple years probably when I would do every diatonic triad off of every chord in tunes. Something about those structures made the weird notes easier to incorporate. Not sure I'd recommend sinking a bunch of time into that, but for better or worse it's a big part of how I do stuff now.

[pamosmusic]

(that Milt Jackson line rules though, btw.)

[Christian Miller]

Important chords of the vanilla dominant are I7 Vm and bVIImaj7

Nb Vm6 = IIIm7b5

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[rpjazzguitar]

If I understand this stuff correctly, and I might not, I'd offer this.

Warren Nunes taught that there were two kinds of chords, Type I and Type II. He didn't refer to them as Tonic and Dominant, but that's what they are, with the proviso that subdominant is classified with dominant.

So, in the key of C, you get Cmaj7=Em7=Gmaj7 (actually, I can't remember how he taught this one - I think he accepted the F# even though it makes the sound Lydian, a term he didn't use either) = Am7. All chords interchangeable.

And, Dm7=G7=Am7=Bm7b5. All interchangeable.

Am7 works with both Types.

So, this seemed pretty easy to learn. And, instead of thinking "build this arpeggio off of this note" you get there (or close) by thinking of chord names, which may be easier.

You practice it by recording some ii V's and freely substituting chords within a Type.

[Strat-itis]

^ Yep, that sounds pretty logical and intuitive to me, as well as simple.

Thx for the write up Peter. Those have been my instincts also. Seems like 3-9s are everywhere, but the other ones it's not so simple because they might just create weirder chord implications. Also simply working the triads seems to be a direct way to get the facility and sound out of the extensions. Yes, the Milt lines are pretty sweet.

[ragman1]

You worry too much. An extension has a sound. When you hear that sound coming, play it. It's that simple, the rest is an excuse.

[pamosmusic]

You worry too much. An extension has a sound. When you hear that sound coming, play it. It's that simple, the rest is an excuse.

Do you think you could play us something rhythmically uninteresting, at an slow, extremely unbeboppy tempo to show us how it's done?

[Strat-itis]

So far I think I've compiled 3 no brainers:

1. 3-9
2. BH fam
3. Triad

[vintagelove]

Triads (among other things) off the b7.

Why? Because 2 4 and 6 don't sound like a 9 11 and 13 to my ear. Part of the magic of extensions (and that includes concepts of playing beyond the 13) is that distance from the root "frees" it from the desire to go back home.

Thats at least how I hear it...