Secondary Dominants built using the non-diatonic tones

[Christian Miller]

Congrats on ABBA’s first appearance on the forum?

There should be more.

[starjasmine]

Hmmm... my first year harmony class taught that since there is only one dominant chord (V7) that occurs naturally (no alterations) in any key signature, ANY secondary dom (a dom built on any note but the 5th scale degree) MUST have at least one out-of-key note.

Thus, I've never thought it particularly significant that the "other" five chromatic notes can be members of secondary dominant chords - by the previous definition, they are.

Consider, too, that you can build a secondary dom from any note, not just the diatonic ones. For example, you might have bII as a tritone sub for V and perhaps you'd like to precede bII7 with its secondary dominant (bVI7).

In C major (functional chromatic harmony), that V7/bII is Ab7, which requires three alterations. (Every note but C is non-diatonic to C.)

Thus, for me, it is not significant whether a secondary dom contains one alteration or more than one alteration... it's all the same.

Interesting observation, tho, OP. I never thought of it that way.

[Tal_175]

In the context of jazz there are often other chromatic notes in secondary dominants in addition to the thirds. For example the V/ii, often has a b9. So in the key of C, A7->Dmin has both C# and Bb alterations. You can also add Eb.

[Question]

Starjasmine,

yes, there is nothing remarkable about it, it is just an obvious fact that I can't believe I overlooked or never really considered in this way. All five non-diatonic tones to build all of the five main secondary dominants.

And yes, I am strictly limiting myself to the five main diatonic chords without any substitutes or alterations.

It is a bit like when my first teacher said "All inverted intervals equal 9". (4ths invert to 5ths, 3rds to 6ths etc.)

I realized that it is either simple math or magic!

So we can all agree that my chart is something that we all know well and unremarkable, but I personally have never looked at it from this particular angle.

[wolflen]

The insight into the diatonic/chromatic harmonic/melodic relation is the Western tool box of modern music.

Volumes have been written and millions of notes played to demonstrate how the "wrong" notes can be harmonic/melodic friends with
the right diatonic notes.

The OP "discovery" of this shows a very common human trait..we can "know" something and not realize it.

Hearing that the OP has studied classical harmony and has played jazz for years it is apparent that the basic concept has been
addressed in harmonic and melodic studies but perhaps not in the very basic way the OP "discovered" it.

for me it was the study of modes. A mystery for many who may use them and not realize doing so. "Oh..that is what those are..!

I am sure there are other "blind spots" in all our musical knowledge. Even the best musicians-(all areas of knowledge) learn something new.

The classic line of teacher/student.."my teacher taught me all I know.." and the teacher responds "..but I did not teach you ALL I know.."

[Mick-7]

I think it's reasonable to say this type of thing was everywhere in the 70s.

Do you suppose that jazz musicians would land more gigs if they wore clothing like that in their publicity photos? (especially the boots, got to have the boots).

But then you'd have to live up to your costume, that could be a problem.

[Christian Miller]

Do you suppose that jazz musicians would land more gigs if they wore clothing like that in their publicity photos? (especially the boots, got to have the boots).

But then you'd have to live up to your costume, that could be a problem.

That's why I turn up to gigs in a sack

[Mick-7]

That's why I turn up to gigs in a sack

That's brilliant, you can't get sacked twice.

[charlieparker]

This is NOT a harmony or theory lesson! Just an observation.

Although I learned what secondary dominants are and how they function decades ago with my first teacher; I recently noticed a simple construction fact that I have never thought about.

I don't really know if this will be any use to anyone (including myself) but it is just one of those magical math things that so often occurs in our western 12-tone musical system.

I am sure that our resident theory-geeks/academics will weigh in and tell me that the Pope or a Monk wrote a treatise on this in the 11th century, but maybe it is new to someone here, so take it as it is or just simply ignore it.


Most everyone knows this stuff; I just found it interesting that the five chromatic notes in a major scale are needed to build the 5 main secondary dominant chords in a major key, that's it. No need to tell me that I can use this or that sub or alter the dominant etc..I know.


It is basically this:

By using each of the non-diatonic tones of a major scale individually, it allows you to build a dominant chord for five of the diatonic chords in a major key (omitting the 7th degree half-diminished, which can't very effectively be proceeded by a dominant if the half-dim was considered to be the final resolution).
Of course I am also omitting the V7, which occurs diatonically in the key

I am aware that technically the term "secondary dominant" in some systems is often reserved for strict dominant to dominant relationships, so call it whatever suits you.

Attachment 121267

It stands to reason that each secondary dominant would have a non-diatonic tone and also not the root. That they are thirds except for the V7/V is a bit interesting. That one is a bit of an odd ball.

My conception of secondary dominant comes from simpler music where you strum some folk song like Stephen Foster might write and then you play a chord and then add the seventh to set up some sort of cadence.

[starjasmine]

It is a bit like when my first teacher said "All inverted intervals equal 9". (4ths invert to 5ths, 3rds to 6ths etc.)

Never thought of that one either! I just memorized the inversions...

Another interesting observation: I was told that "perfect" intervals are called that because they do not change quality when inverted - they remain "perfect." For example, a perfect 4th becomes a perfect 5th and vice-versa. But major intervals become minor (e.g. M3 becomes m6) when inverted, and minor intervals become major when inverted. Augmented becomes diminished. E.g. Aug 5th (C to G#) becomes dim 4th (G# to C) when inverted.

I can't say this is particularly useful on the bandstand :-) but it's fun in a theory-geek-notation-trivia kind of way...

[Christian Miller]

Although annoyingly perfect fourth is a dissonance in traditional two voice counterpoint which is a shame because the imperfect consonances behave the same... see 'invertible counterpoint'