Weaving the VII into my lines.

[brent.h]

..

[ragman1]

Coltrane used it:



With the Ab (G#) it becomes an Abm arpeggio which is pretty well the G7alt sound.

[pamosmusic]

Coltrane used it:



With the Ab (G#) it becomes an Abm arpeggio which is pretty well the G7alt sound.

Abm7 so something resembling a tritone sub, but not quite the altered scale thing.

[Christian Miller]

Love that sound!


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[Mick-7]

Coltrane used it:



With the Ab (G#) it becomes an Abm arpeggio which is pretty well the G7alt sound.

I usually avoid playing the maj.7 over a dom. chord on a strong beat though. The relevant diminished scale, that starts on the 3rd/5th/7th/b9th of the dominant chord , includes the Abm6 so you're just adding the m7 (F#) to it.

[wolflen]

[QUOTE=brent.h;1371399]

I know this might already be obvious to many, but I noticed that V+ and VII are almost the same sound. They're like siblings or something. A V+ has two notes in common with a VII. In the key of C, G augmented is G, B, D#/Eb, and the B major triad is B, D#/Eb, F#.


In the study of the Augmented scale you will find: ( I use just the flat notes for consistency)

G Bb B D Eb Gb .... G Aug Scale

G B D..
G Bb D

B Eb Gb
B D Gb

Eb G Bb
Eb Gb Bb

And that not all.. (drum Roll please)

G B Eb
Bb D Gb
B Eb G
D Gb Bb
Eb G B
Gb Bb D

Yep six augmented triads

Not bad for a six note scale

Now being that the Melodic minor has an augmented triad built in..with some study and experimentation you can create some very cool lines

[Mick-7]

In the study of the Augmented scale you will find: (I use just the flat notes for consistency)

G Bb B D Eb Gb .... G Aug Scale

G B D..
G Bb D

B Eb Gb
B D Gb

Eb G Bb
Eb Gb Bb

And that not all.. (drum Roll please)

G B Eb
Bb D Gb
B Eb G
D Gb Bb
Eb G B
Gb Bb D

Yep six augmented triads. Not bad for a six note scale

Now being that the Melodic minor has an augmented triad built in..with some study and experimentation you can create some very cool lines

Yes, the aug. triads move in b3rds/half-steps, for example: x-x-5-4-4-3 >> x-x-8-7-7-6 >> x-x-9-8-8-7 - etc.

[Christian Miller]

I usually avoid playing the maj.7 over a dom. chord on a strong beat though. The relevant diminished scale, that starts on the 3rd/5th/7th/b9th of the dominant chord , includes the Abm6 so you're just adding the m7 (F#) to it.

Wimp!


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[ragman1]

Abm7 so something resembling a tritone sub, but not quite the altered scale thing.

Not quite, no, but that's the Coltrane lick (with the F#). Ab melodic is more a m6 sound.

[pamosmusic]

Not quite, no, but that's the Coltrane lick (with the F#). Ab melodic is more a m6 sound.

Mmhm.

Operative thing being that that’s a bit a more of a post bop sound, and that dim(maj7) thing the OP is talking about is a little different.

[Mick-7]

Just noticed something as I was playing the tune Meditation (key of C).

B7 is a rootless G+9

B7: B, D#, A
G+9: G, B, D#, A (i call this the Basie Chord)

Well yes, that's true of all dominant chords derived from the whole tone scale: G-A-B-C#(Db)-D#(Eb)-F.

That is, you can construct an augmented dominant chord on each note of the scale, and chords a major 3rd apart are functionally identical: G7b5/#5 - B7b5/#5, A7b5/#5 - C#7b5/#5, etc.

[JazzPadd]

Lots of food for thought here, and movement for the fingers. Thank you for the observation.

[rpjazzguitar]

Just noticed something as I was playing the tune Meditation (key of C).

B7 is a rootless G+9

B7: B, D#, A
G+9: G, B, D#, A (i call this the Basie Chord)

B7 is B D# F# A.

G+9 is not a common way to write a chord. I would interpret it as G B D# F A. If you saw it in a Brazilian chart it might refer to a #9, but it would still be atypical and probably ambiguous.

The notes you wrote out spell, to me, G+(add9). That's because the 9 implies the b7, which is F.

So, to make them equivalent you have to omit the F# from the B7 and both the G and the F from the Gsomething.

[AllanAllen]

I don’t think Brent is saying B7 is G+(9). But playing B7 over G7 sounds cool.

[rpjazzguitar]

Yeah my ears like playing B7 over G7.

Recently, I've started playing B7 as a transition sound between F and C.

[F to F- to C/E] or [F to F#° to C/G]

becomes [F to B7 to C]

Fine with me. Might as well get the names right though.

[Mick-7]

Yeah my ears like playing B7 over G7.

You like playing the maj.7th (F#) over G7?

Before it sounded like you meant B7+ (B7#5) = B-D#-G-A (no major 7th). As I said, that's a common whole tone substitute.

Recently, I've started playing B7 as a transition sound between F and C.

[F to F- to C/E] or [F to F#° to C/G] becomes [F to B7 to C]

Actually it doesn't, F#dim7 = D7b9 (F#-A-C-D). Fm could serve as a suspended dom.7b9 chord, F-Ab-C = G7b9sus (no root).

[wolflen]

You like playing the maj.7th (F#) over G7?

Before it sounded like you meant B7+ (B7#5) = B-D#-G-A (no major 7th). As I said, that's a common whole tone substitute.



Actually it doesn't, F#dim7 = D7b9 (F#-A-C-D).

Mick..D7b9 .. with the root? where is the b9..Eb?

[Mick-7]

Mick..D7b9 .. with the root? where is the b9..Eb?

Oh, I misspelled it, that would be D7.... should be D7b9: F#-A-C-D#(Eb), which is also: F7b9, Ab7b9, & B7b9, all rootless, but they are not subs for G7, and unrelated to Fm.

[Mick-7]

Here is an example of using a whole tone chord substitute, B9b5 for F+ in this instance. The second measures harmony is a repeat of the first measure, i.e., F > F#, but I'm subbing Dm7 (VIm7) for F^7 (I^7), and C9(no 5th), another whole tone chord, for F+.

[wolflen]

Here is an example of using a whole tone chord substitute, B9b5 for F+ in this instance. The second measures harmony is a repeat of the first measure, i.e., F > F#, but I'm subbing Dm7 (VIm7) for F^7 (I^7), and C9(no 5th), another whole tone chord, for F+.

very cool voice leading..

[PMB]

Yeah my ears like playing B7 over G7.

Recently, I've started playing B7 as a transition sound between F and C.

[F to F- to C/E] or [F to F#° to C/G]

becomes [F to B7 to C]

In that case, I hear the B7 as coming from the common tone diminished of the root.

An equivalent progression would be to think of F6 as Dm7, B7 as D#o7 and Cmaj7 as Em7, a iii sub:

Dm7-D#o7-Em7.

Dominant chords can take all sorts of harmonically 'incorrect' notes (F# over G7) as long as the implied voice-leading is strong.

[Mick-7]

very cool voice leading.

Thank you, I'm working up an arrangement of this tune (It Never Entered My Mind) and its harmony is pretty sparse so I have to make up for it with chord subs and moving voices. I find it's more challenging to make tunes with simple chord changes sound interesting than tunes that are more harmonically complex.

[Mick-7]

Dm7-D#o7-Em7.

Dominant chords can take all sorts of harmonically 'incorrect' notes (F# over G7) as long as the implied voice-leading is strong.

True, but brent implied that B7b9/D7b9/F7b9/Ab7b9 are subs for G7, but as you said, in this case it's more like V7b9 of IIIm than
V7(b9) of I^

[PMB]

True, but brent implied that B7b9/D7b9/F7b9/Ab7b9 are subs for G7, but as you said, in this case it's more like V7b9 of IIIm than
V7(b9) of I^

All roads lead to Rome.

[Christian Miller]

I like Gmaj7#5 as a sub for G7


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