-
I think that's correct, but I can't imagine doing it.
Originally Posted by Mick-7
I'm tapping my foot in quarters, then the equation, and I continue tapping at the same speed, but it's now a dotted quarter and I'm reading 3/4 (at the new, faster tempo) while tapping dotted quarters. Ugh.
The best I've come up with so far is that in the bar before the equation I count in eighth note triplets. Then, in the next bar (after the equation), I play the first and third of those triplets and start tapping my foot at that tempo.
So it's:
AR-ti-choke, AR-ti-choke, AR-ti-choke/
AR-ti-CHOKE
And, if I don't have it by then, I'm going to have to lay out until I can pick it up from the drums and then, hopefully, find my place in the chart.
-
11-26-2024 03:02 PM
-
What I'm saying is that you do not change when you tap your foot, because you're tapping it on the base beat (quarter notes in 3/4), which does not change. You only change how you count the upper counter-beat (2 over 3 beats) from 1/4 note to dotted 1/4 note. I'll figure out the correct solkatu syllables to do that and get back to you. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
-
The idea of reading a chart in 3/4 while tapping dotted quarters seems like something I'd have to practice for a long time. I mean, being able to tap in two while singing in 3 isn't that hard (I can feel the half-note triplet), but the idea of then reading a couple of pages in 3/4 while tapping in dotted quarters, and while listening to the bass and drums playing straight 3/4 time, ... that seems too hard. Originally Posted by Mick-7
-
This s*** gets confusing right away. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Say you're tapping your foot, before the equation, in quarter notes at 60bpm in 3/4 time. You hit the equation. The next bar is also in 3/4 time but at 90 bpm.
If you continue tapping at 60bpm each tap is a dotted quarter.
You're then reading lines in 3/4 time while tapping your foot twice per bar, i.e. dotted quarters. I don't think I could do that, even with a lot of practice.
You'd be seeing and hearing 90bpm (in the rest of the band) while tapping your foot at 60bpm. I can hear the 3 over 2 required in that as an exercise, but trying to read lines while thinking that way would overwhelm me.
But, if someone else finds that easier, that's that. There's no one way in music.
For myself, I still like the idea of counting eighth note triplets in the bar before the equation. Then, in the bar after, start tapping my foot on the first, third and fifth notes of those triplets and that's the new tempo.
If I can do that much, the rest of the chart is simply reading in 3/4 time at 90bpm, while tapping at 90bpm.
As far as the term "counterbeat" goes, I'm not sure I'm grasping your use of the term.
Is the "counterbeat" the original 60bpm carried forward past the equation (which would be a dotted quarter)? Or is it the quarter note at the new tempo?
If I have to tap one and think the other, sooner or later (well, sooner, tbh) I'm going to go off the time.
-
By "hit the equation," I think you mean the point at which you shift from: 1 Beat = 1/4 note = 1 Beat = 1/4 + 1/8th note (dotted 1/4 note) ?? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
You made that shift because the piece demanded it , correct? It had a melodic and/or harmonic phrase or section with a rhythm of 2 over 3 (2/3) beats rather than the common 3 over 3 (3/3) beats to the bar (by "counter-beat" I meant the top part of the rhythmic equation, e.g., the 2 of 2/3).
This change in the counter-beat section is irrelevant to the speed at which you play the piece. If it has a rhythm of 2 over 3 (2/3) to the bar, it will remain 2/3 no matter how fast you play it, and you will continue to tap your foot to the base beat (the bottom part of 2/3 or 3/3) before and after you go from the 3/3 section to the 2/3 section. If you were to count it physically, you would do so by tapping it with your fingers or clapping it against the base beat that you're tapping with your foot.
I think I confused both of us earlier when I spoke of dotted 1/4 notes becoming dotted 1/8 notes in double-time, etc. That's the wrong way to look at it, the dotted 1/4 notes will remain dotted 1/4 notes when you go to double-time, they're just played twice as fast, you now play two bars at the speed you were playing one bar.
-
Couldn't hear much in those files. I think something must have gotten screwed up. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Here's another way to think about it.
At the original tempo, one bar of 3/4 lasts 3 seconds (at 60bpm).
Then, the equation changes the duration of the next bar.
The equation states that 1.5x the duration of the new quarter note equals the duration of the old quarter note.
That means that the new quarter note lasts .667 seconds. Give or take a repeating decimal.
Three of the new quarter notes take 2 seconds. That comes out to 90 bpm.
So, one bar of 3/4 at the new tempo takes the same amount of time as two quarter notes of 3/4 at the old tempo.
So, if you continue to tap your foot at the old tempo, you're tapping dotted quarters while trying to read in 3/4.
Now, suppose the bar at the new tempo is very simple. Three quarter notes at 90bpm. How are you going to nail the second quarter note? My thinking is that it has to be done with triplets, unless you change to 9/8 or something like that.
This isn't a case of 2 over 3 or the opposite as far as I can tell. It's more like everything gets compressed by a third.
-
Sorry, I'm not following you, as I said, the relationship between beats in any measure does not change no matter how fast or slow you play it. You'd tap your foot to the bottom rhythm (quarter note per beat) at any speed.
2 over 3 (in 3/4) Formula:
2 beat rhythm = 1 dotted quarter note per beat
3 beat rhythm = 1 quarter note per beat
----Ta-ki-Ta-Ki-Ta-ki-|-Ta-ki-Ta-Ki-Ta-ki-|
-----o--o--o--o--o--o--|--o--o--o--o--o--o--|
Bt..1............2............|...1............2.. .........|
----Ta-ki-Ta-ki-Ta-ki-|-Ta-ki-Ta-ki-Ta-ki-|
-----o--o--o--o--o--o--|--o--o--o--o--o--o--|
Bt--1.......2........3.......|..1........2.......3.... ..|
-
I understand the above but I'm unable to apply it to solve the problem of the metric modulation q=q. Originally Posted by Mick-7
The 2 over 3 is exactly as you state it. I play a version of Caminho Cruzados which is in 3/4, but the guitar comp through much of the tune is dotted quarters so it creates 2 over 3. Nice effect.
But, I don't see how it's enough to get through the metric modulation that I've been writing about.
The metric modulation changes the length of the basic quarter note. In 60 bpm the quarter note lasts one second. After the equation q=q. you're at 90 bpm and the quarter note lasts .667 seconds.
If you continue tapping your foot at 60 bpm, you end up in a situation where you're tapping 60 bpm while reading notes in 3/4 time at 90 bpm. I will be impressed by anybody who can do that.
-
Well no, when it goes to 90 bpm you would tap your foot at the new speed, but the relationship of the main beat (foot tapping beat) to the counter-rhythm doesn't change (2 over 3 in this case). Why would you want to continue tapping your foot at the old speed? (of 60 bpm) Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Or you may just want to give up foot tapping.
-
How do you find the beat for 90 bpm? Originally Posted by Mick-7
Well no, when it goes to 90 bpm you would tap your foot at the new speed, but the relationship of the main beat (foot tapping beat) to the counter-rhythm doesn't change (2 over 3 in this case). Why would you want to continue tapping your foot at the old speed? (of 60 bpm)
Or you may just want to give up foot tapping.
I do it by counting triplets in the bar before and then tapping my foot on the first, third and fifth triplets -- which puts my foot on quarter notes in 90bpm. It's a tempo change. Once I've got 90bpm going on, there isn't any counter-rhythm.
Do you have a better way to accomplish this?
The only way 3 over 2 comes in, afaik, is if you overlay 3 on just two beats at the old tempo. Which is a neat trick if you can do it.
-
Find the beat? Have we left 3/4 time? Quarter note = 1 beat, and 2 beats (over 3) still = Dotted Quarter note, at both 60 & 90 bpm. So the metric formula has not changed, you're just playing it faster. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
-
Right. But how do you find the faster tempo? Originally Posted by Mick-7
-
Not sure what you mean, your time keeper (drummer or metronome) is playing the basic beat, quarter note per beat in this case (3/4). You could continue tapping your foot to that beat, and keep playing the same 2 beat (dotted quarter note per beat) phrasing over it - just at the faster drum/metronome tempo. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
-
I guess I'm not sure what you mean either. Originally Posted by Mick-7
For me, the issue is internalizing the new tempo. I'm not going to be able to read 3/4 time at 90bpm while tapping 3/4 time at 60bpm (although I don't know if that's what you're suggesting - I don't think I understand it yet).
And, the only way I can figure out to go from the original tempo to the new tempo is to do the trick with triplets.
-
You would just follow the drummer/metronome and tap your foot at the new speed of 90 bpm, you wouldn't continue to tap it at the old speed of 60 bpm. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
If we were at 60 bpm and went to double time (120 bpm), would you continue to tap your foot at 60 bpm or start tapping it at 120 bpm? Actually, it would kind of make sense to do that, so let's make it 60% faster... would you continue to tap your foot at 60 bpm if we went to 96 bpm?
The ratio of 2 over 3, which is 1.5 to 1, 1 dotted quarter note to 1 quarter note, will apply at any tempo, it could be 20%, 50%, 80%, 100% (2x) faster (or slower) than our original tempo, doesn't matter. There's nothing special about a 50% tempo change that would alter the 2 to 3 formula, don't know why we got fixated on that particular number.
-
I don't want to follow the drummer. I want to play the time correctly from the first beat at the new tempo. I want to know where the new tempo is - based on the old tempo. Counting triplets, as I explained, accomplishes that. Originally Posted by Mick-7
The reason we're talking about 50% is because we started out talking about the equation q=q. (quarter = dotted-quarter). That is a 50% increase in the tempo.
And, I'm talking about reading a chart with that metric modulation.
Another way of posing the problem is -- tap at some tempo in 3/4. After some number of bars, without any interruption, tap 50% faster. How do you find the new tempo?
I'm sorry if this isn't clear or is muddled. I don't know how to explain it any better.
-
Ah, o.k., I see the problem....
Well, you'll have to anticipate where 1 is, the first beat of each measure in 3/4, it will coincide with your 1st beat of 2 over 3. If you miss it, you'll know that your 2nd beat (2 of 2 over 3) is a half beat (1/8th note) after the 2nd beat in 3/4 (beat 2 of 3).
As in my example.....
Each o = 1/8th note
1 of 2 (top rhythm) and 1 of 3 (bottom rhythm) coincide
2 of 2 (top rhythm) is a half beat (1/8th note) after 2 of 3 (bottom rhythm) - etc.
----Ta-ki-Ta-Ki-Ta-ki-|-Ta-ki-Ta-Ki-Ta-ki-|
-----o--o--o--o--o--o--|--o--o--o--o--o--o--|
Bt..1............2............|...1............2.. .........|
----Ta-ki-Ta-ki-Ta-ki-|-Ta-ki-Ta-ki-Ta-ki-|
-----o--o--o--o--o--o--|--o--o--o--o--o--o--|
Bt--1.......2........3.......|..1........2.......3.... ..|
You'll have this challenge of keeping time with any poly-rhythm. The metric formula shows you how to count the poly-rhythm but you'll need to practice it until you can feel it, then you'll no longer need to count it.
-
I appreciate your help in thinking this through. Originally Posted by Mick-7
In the first line, you overlay dotted quarters on to 3/4 time. That's classic 2 over 3.
On the second line you return to the original 3/4 time, with accents on the quarters instead of the dotted-quarters. Again, a valid presentation of 2/3.
So the second line's accents are faster than the first line's accents by the right amount. But, I don't yet see how that helps when you're reading the chart and you come to the equation.
You could start counting in dotted quarters in the bar before the equation. If you started at 60bpm, those dotted quarters would be at 40bpm.
Then you hit the equation and the tempo has to speed up by 50%. The new quarter note is at 90bpm.
If you tap the old quarter note, you get 60bpm. If you tap the old dotted-quarter you get 40bpm.
But, you need 90bpm. Where do you get it from?
You can count eighth note triplets at the original time and get the new time by tapping on the first, third and fifth of them.
Alternatively, you could take the last two beats out of the bar before the time-change and overlay a triplet on those two beats. That triplet would be at the right speed for the new tempo. Because it's three notes in the space of two, which is the ratio dictated by the equation.
It means you play one regular quarter note beat in that measure before the time-change, then think a quarter triplet over the next two beats and start tapping your foot at that tempo. That would work, if you can do it, which, right now, I can't.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 11-28-2024 at 10:03 PM.
-
Those two lines are not separate, they go together, the 2 beats (2 dotted quarter notes) of the top line is played over the 3 beats (3 quarter notes) of the bottom line. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
The two lines are played together so one is not faster than the other, they are just different divisions of a measure in 3/4 time, the top line of 2 beats divides the measure in half (1 dotted 1/4 note + 1 dotted 1/4 note = 3/4) while the bottom line of 3 beats divides it in 3rds (1/4 note + 1/4 note + 1/4 note = 3/4).
You seem to be confusing the duration of a note (1/8th, 1/4, dotted 1/4, etc.) with the tempo at which the note is played, they are two different things.
If you examine the 2 over 3 example in my last post, you will see that the 2nd beat of the top line (of 2 beats) falls in between the 2nd and 3rd beats of the bottom line - as illustrated below - and this will be the case regardless of the tempo at which you play the measure.
1-------2--------|
0-o-O-0-O-o-|
1----2-----3----|
-
I understand the point. I don’t think it’s enough to read through a metric modulation and nail the new tempo. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Thanks for your patience.
-
I see that a couple of my previous posts were contradictory, it's been quite a while since I studied the subject and I got a couple of things wrong, sorry about that. You have to practice these polyrhythms to really comprehend them.
2 over 3 is a piece of cake compared to some other polyrhythms such as 5 over 4, not even sure how to write it in standard notation, this is about as close as I can get (below). The bracket indicates that five 16th's = four 16ths, but they do not line up properly with the top beat (5 of 5 over 4) in this example. Not even sure how to correct that in GuitarPro. If I change the beat accents (down arrow) it'll look like the 5 & 4 beats coincide, and of course they don't.
.
Attached is an excerpt (pdf) from a book on South Indian rhythm solfege by Richard Hoffman, which explains the basics of it.Last edited by Mick-7; 11-29-2024 at 06:04 PM.
-
A big bracket across the whole bar of 5:4. Like the second bar of Stockhausen's first Klavierstuck except that that's in 2/4: Originally Posted by Mick-7
I see that a couple of my previous posts were contradictory, it's been quite a while since I studied the subject and I got a couple of things wrong, sorry about that. You have to practice these polyrhythms to really comprehend them.
2 over 3 is a piece of cake compared to some other polyrhythms such as 5 over 4, not even sure how to write it in standard notation, this is about as close as I can get (below). The bracket indicates that five 16th's = four 16ths, but they do not line up properly with the top beat (5 of 5 over 4) in this example. Not even sure how to correct that in GuitarPro.
.
-
I can see doing that in 2/4, but it gets to too hard to read when the brackets encompass more than 2 beats. Also, Guitar-Pro is too primitive for such complex notation. Originally Posted by James W
-
It can be figured out though, and you can learn to feel it. Originally Posted by Mick-7
And then there are so-called 'irrational' time signatures such as 4/5 - that is to say, a bar consisting of 4 quintuplet quarter notes, which could alternatively be notated as a 5:4 tuplet with the right end of the bracket left open and only consisting of 4 rather than five quintuplet quarter notes.
-
This is a lot of text for things that could be demonstrated well on a video.
As I am apparently incapable of dressing myself I’ll see if Asaf has anything in his vast and terrifying YouTube back catalogue.
EDIT here’s Pat Davey instead
Metric Modulation #konnakol #metricmodulation - YouTube
Actually not entirely sure what he’s doing here. Oh well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
“Shearing style”
Today, 05:26 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions