In support of Learning Chords

[skrohn]

I enjoyed thinking thru the method in this attached doc.
It is fun and helpful for me.
I like being able to spell the chords as this method helps me do.
Kind of a nerdy theory thing.
Perhaps it will be fun and helpful for some others.

Scott

[pauln]

My two cents... I may be confused
For something that goes deep like this, it might be clearer to use a single perspective throughout. It opens with spelling (which generally means the letter names of notes, doesn't it?) but uses degrees instead of notes, but calls them intervals. When producing the chord circle you introduce points representing notes indicated by degrees called intervals. Then the voicing is said to contain notes, which are really degrees, but called intervals, and that these may be named Bass, Tenor, Alto, and Soprano. Then the formulae are defined using the f b x movements...
I think I know where you are going, but I count a half dozen different perspectives within the analysis that don't all mutually align in the way I understand them.

[skrohn]

Thanks for your attention to the document and for your comments.

In terms of where I am going:
This is created for my own use and amusement.
It is shared to see if there are others who may appreciate or may be amused by the thought process.

I have created a simple method where one can quickly call out the inversions of a voicing from low to high.
By call out I mean just say the degrees in low to high order.
The chord circle and formulas with the f b x movements make that a pretty simple task.

At the point of putting the voicing inversion on the guitar one would convert the degrees into note names and execute it as a chord or an arpeggio.

There are so many chord shapes that the drop and shell chords can produce.
Memorization of shapes without supporting information (perhaps a method such as the one presented) is daunting.

The ability to call out the inversion, translate to note names and execute on the neck in any key would be one thing to aspire towards. Doing this slowly at first supports producing a chord shape from a given root.

Trying to do this close to this real time hones other useful skills.
I like it as a fruitful fun game to play.

I will revisit the doc with your comments in mind.
My curiosity is more to whether this type of thing peaks anyone’s interest or curiosity.

I would note that the chord circle and the f b x movements come from the teachings of Thomas Echols Labyrinth of Limitations. I have taken those things that he uses for different purposes and have applied them here.
The high and low shell chords are his terms as well.
Scott

[alltunes]

I find it misleading when you say "occurring on 5 strings" when in fact there are 4 notes. Unless you consider dampening an unplayed string an occurrence.

[skrohn]

Thanks for your input.

Perhaps range over 5 strings might be better said.

The main thing is that in order to play the drop 3, and the drop 2 and 4 voicings, you need to span 5 strings.
The point being made is that there are only 2 sets of each of those due to the 5 string span.
You are correct that in order to play the 4 notes at one time ( as a chord ) you will need to bypass a string by dampening it or by using your right hand finger style.

Hope that is helpful and you find use for the info.

Scott

[wolflen]

For me this method is confusing at best.

Your description of harmonic structures gives no indication of fingering for such chords or their relation to each other

a clear image of a chord shape-perhaps on a fret grid-and a chord name would help anyone that may use your method.

Many on this forum have a deep understanding of chord relationships and their variations.

I have studied harmony for many years and continue to do so as do others here.

I appreciate your effort to add a method to further develop ones ability to use chords.

[skrohn]

Your comments are appreciated and give me an opportunity to clarify my intent further.
Happy to do so.

There is no intent to convey fingerings or to specify chord relationships.
Supplying chord grids and names defeat the purpose.
That is the take away from the exercise not its input.
It is not about harmony or chord relationships.

It is a game to train your eye and mind and expand your vision of the neck.

It can help you name the degrees high to low in the voicings.
It is up to you to take that and to create the grids and the arps from this knowledge.

You can start with C6 drop 2 inversions.
First step is to derive the inversions from the circle and formulas as
1-5-6-3
3-6-1-5
5-1-3-6
6-3-5-1

Next:
See if you can convert these degrees to note names in the key of C and play them on any or all of the sets of 4 adjacent strings. Play them as chords or arps.

Do you need time to think and write it down ?
Can you do it at all ?
Can you spit it out close to real time ?

Does your success at doing this tell you anything about what you can be stronger at ?

What if you try it for B6 or Eb6.
What if you change the degrees in the circle to represent a m6 or a 7b5 chord.
Can you generate the voicings for those chords and apply them to various keys both in your mind and on the guitar.

Years ago I was studying with a teacher doing some scale work.
I worked real hard at the study one week. When I went for the lesson, he asked if I knew the exercise.
I said I did. So he said ok why don’t you pick it with an up pick in a particular spot instead of a down pick.
I couldn’t do it. He smiled at me and said “I thought you said you knew it”.
Pissed me off, but the take away was whatever you think you know you can probably know a bit deeper.

I find this exercise an interesting way to build strength in various areas, test what I know and help me to know it deeper.

It is not intended to replace any of the good work you do or methods you use.
We all see things different ways and I know that this is not for everyone.
You can play beautiful stuff without it for sure.

There is no intent to disparage the many on the forum with deep understanding.
This is something else. Just want to share.

I love it and would smile if someone out there read it and said “Cool, I get it … fun to think this way”
Scott

[murrayatuptown]

No, for me, to all of the can you...? Not yet, but thank you for sharing another way of looking at things.

Someday I hope to integrate many fragments into an understanding (I feel the need to understand first)and hopefully eventually be able to play without constant thought.

Constant thought (for me) was fine for studying book theory but I want to unlearn my over-thinking & learn to play musically.

[skrohn]

Seems like I should have added a
"Does it matter to you” to the can you’s.

There is a right time for things…

[skrohn]

I thank you for your comments.
This thread was not intended as a thread to discuss various approaches to teach developing players.
If I was involved in such a thread, I might support some of the approach that you laid out.

Perhaps I should have qualified what this was up front.
Although I have spent ample time trying to explain what this is about,
nobody wants to talk about it on those terms.

Fair enough.

[skrohn]

Not worth the effort.
This was a gift.
I am not interested in defending it's merits or do l care to try to convince anyone of its worth.
Anyone interested can give it a sincere try then like it or throw it out.
We don't see what we don't see.
Fine with me.

[wolflen]

[QUOTE=rpjazzguitar;1353271]"To provide a method that will enable the reader to spell chord voicings inversions of specific types."

That's your statement of purpose.

But, it isn't clear to me what advantage your approach has.
Maybe you could make that clearer?

I too am a bit puzzled at the post..But I read it again and the OP responses.

OK to be fair the OP states this is not a method of harmonic movement using voice leading through a progression.

But a way to "ingest" a chord fully..to use an old hippy term..GROK it-- To understand (something) intuitively, to know (something) without having to think intellectually.

..so if on the 10th fret A note..I would know every chord and their voicing that would have
that A note and all the inversions on all string sets..without the use of the guitar (or any instrument.)

at least I think that is the purpose of his method.

By the way..some of his source material..is influenced by Barry Harris.

[rpjazzguitar]

Not worth the effort.
This was a gift.
I am not interested in defending it's merits or do l care to try to convince anyone of its worth.
Anyone interested can give it a sincere try then like it or throw it out.
We don't see what we don't see.
Fine with me.

I assumed that you wanted comments. Perhaps that was not correct. I appreciate the gift and I acknowledge that others may benefit from it.

[skrohn]

Yea Wolflen,
I love “Grok”

So yes, digging in with an exercise such as this leads to a better intuitive understanding and knowledge.
There are many exercises that can be done in that vain. This is a fun one for me.

Having a deeper and fuller connection with the neck, with the notes in chords, with what you have in your hands, doing something in 12 keys can only be helpful, especially if It is brought home to the point where it is intuitive.
It is an endless journey that is fun.

I am retired with plenty of time for this. Keeps me off the street

What you said about 10th Fret A as an example is something you might use this knowledge for.
I think that I can train myself to spit out arpeggios for all the voicings in all keys.
I am more invested in the vision the work will provide and the connections that I will see, than playing the arpeggios themselves.

Regarding source material influenced by Barry Harris:
I am involved in studying Barry Harris teaching materials via Thomas Echols Labyrinth of Limitations Patreon.
My vision of the neck is far beyond what it was last year. I highly recommend this.
Thomas has a unique, detailed and brilliant point of view. The Patreon material is much more focused than the Labyrinth of Limitations Youtube site. I learned alot from the youtube material as well.

The Idea of learning how to call out all the voicings from memory is independent from any Barry Harris material but the impetus to do so comes from being involved in the studies.

I wrote up a way of doing this a while back … that is a set of shortcuts to memorize the voicings.

Recent studies used the Chord Circle and f x b movements for a different purpose.
I saw that they would be a simpler approach and rewrote that doc creating this new one.

Working within the Barry Harris studies, requires/encourages the deep knowledge that I am working towards.
What can be done within that framework is endless.
Looking at it from the surface tells you little …. do the work get the benefits.

Thanks for looking at this in an open minded way. Hope it is useful.

Scott

[skrohn]

No worries. All good.

To be direct though I was not looking to discuss its merits with someone who put no effort into trying it or thinking about it much. It appeared to be a knee jerk reaction against it.
That is fine.

Your point of view is not my issue and if it is good for you that is great.
Happy for you.
If you don’t like what I shared you could have just moved on to another thread.

Comments that would be more welcome would be something along the lines of asking what I thought it might be helpful with and why. That is positive and curious and what I would be happy to discuss. Take it or leave it after that.

Your comments were more like I don’t like it, I don’t think that way, I have a better way for teaching developing students.
So you turned it around to be about you.
You challenged me to defend it without appearing open minded.
Makes me less inclined to share.
I have no ego in this game. I like what I like and I don’t need verification.

All polite and courteous so no worries.

[Mick-7]

I enjoyed thinking thru the method in this attached doc.
It is fun and helpful for me.
I like being able to spell the chords as this method helps me do.
Kind of a nerdy theory thing.
Perhaps it will be fun and helpful for some others.

Scott

I don't see the point of this, if one knows the notes on the fret-board and how to construct chords than one knows their inversions and how to find them on the fretboard.

[skrohn]

ok fair enough

[Mick-7]

I realize my comment wasn't all the helpful, but some of us tend to create a system where none is needed - I too have been guilty of it. If you start in any position on the fretboard and find all the notes of a particular chord within a 5 fret span, than move up 4-5 frets and repeat the process, you can discover every possible voicing of that chord. There will overlapping notes between the fretboard positions.

For example (avoiding open strings), all possible C6 notes:

C6 [ = Am7 & Fmaj.9(no root) ]:

1: (3)-(3)-(2)-(2)-(1)-(3)

2: (5)-(3)-(5)-(5)-(5)-(5)

3) (8)-(7)-(7)-(9)-(8)-(8)

4) (12)-(10 or 12)-(10)-(12)-(10)-(12)

The hard work is to organize and memorize the chord voicings and their related chords - at least those with the broadest harmonic application.

[pamosmusic]

I realize my comment wasn't all the helpful, but some of us tend to create a system where none is needed - I too have been guilty of it. If you start in any position on the fretboard and find all the notes of a particular chord within a 5 fret span, than move up 4-5 frets and repeat the process, you can discover every possible voicing of that chord. There will overlapping notes between the fretboard positions.

For example (avoiding open strings), all possible C6 notes:

C6 [ = Am7 & Fmaj.9(no root) ]:

1: (3)-(3)-(2)-(2)-(1)-(3)

2: (5)-(3)-(5)-(5)-(5)-(5)

3) (8)-(7)-(7)-(9)-(8)-(8)

4) (12)-(10 or 12)-(10)-(12)-(10)-(12)

The hard work is to organize and memorize the chord voicings and their related chords - at least those with the broadest harmonic application.

I kind of hate this

I feel like for such an intuitive system, one or two of the voicings should be reasonably playable.

[pamosmusic]

And for what it’s worth, I’m not sure there’s such thing as a necessary system. It’s useful if it helps, it’s extraneous if it doesn’t. I’m sure some will find the OPs handout helpful.

But generally speaking, people who think one system is too complex or is taking unnecessary steps just have their own system that would seem equally baroque to an outsider. Or they’re not thinking of something the new system might incorporate.

[Mick-7]

I kind of hate this

I feel like for such an intuitive system, one or two of the voicings should be reasonably playable.

I suppose the essential voicings would be these four, and any voicing on the top 4 strings could transferred to the middle strings.

C6/Am7:
1. (3)-x-2-2-1-(3)

2. (5)-x-5-5-5-(5)

3) (8)-x-7-9-8-(8)

4) (12)-10-12-10-(12)

[skrohn]

Thank You Pamosmusic.

Mick-7 has indicated that I presented a system where none is needed.
And then he presents one to replace mine, which is not elegant and does not serve the same purpose.
But not to worry about my blunder, he has fallen into the same trap before he knew better. LOL

Very little has been said in this thread that indicates understanding of why I liked it enough to share it.
I have tried to explain best I could in my responses.

Nobody asked me what I would use it for.

What I present is a quick trick to spit out voicing degrees. That’s it.

I like being able to do that.
What’s the big deal.

It is not a system to play chords althought it supports doing so.
It is not a system to play arps although it supports playing arps.
It is not a system to look at the neck and see pieces of chords that can be related to the f-x-b shapes, but it supports that.
Perhaps you can move those pieces around and get some nice movement in your harmony, maybe see them for all sorts of chords in all keys.
Perhaps you can see them for chords that work well together and have great voice leading.

It is a system to call out the voicings. That is foundational knowledge. It can be used in endless ways.
Do with it as you want. OR NOT.

In itself a lack of understanding is fine. I live in that space for all sorts of things.

When one doesn’t understand the best thing to do is attempt to understand. Ask questions.
Give a good go at it before denigrating what you do not understand or indicate that you have something better.
That is a basic tenet of being a student.

But this is an internet forum ….

I don’t mean to insult anyone, all responses have be courteous so no issue there.

Happy Practicing whatever you all think is best.

[pamosmusic]

Well, I don’t think Mick was proposing one to replace. I believe that was his example of his own “system where no system was needed.”

But still.

System = learning tool.

Different people learn in different ways.

[skrohn]

Apologies if I got that wrong.
A little burnt out. No good deed goes unpunished.

[Mick-7]

I don't think that knowing how chords are constructed so that you can find their chord tones on the neck is a "system." And if you know how they are are constructed, you don't need a formula to spell out the inversions, they are obvious.